5 ft. step with surprise standard action?

[Vigwyn the Unruly]

As for the ‘debate’ at hand. It’s clear that you can take a 5’ step. The book says . . .

I'd say it's anything but clear.

So, let’s see if I can still make a logical argument (remembering high school debate club)

1) One can take a 5’ step in any round in which s/he doesn’t perform any other kind of movement
2) All surprise rounds are rounds

So, one can take a 5’ step in any surprise round in which s/he doesn’t perform any other kind of movement.

See my answer to this in the last part of post #20.

 

[Vigwyn the Unruly]

Frankly my rule of thumb is:
If my players want to do it, and I can't think of a GOOD reason not to let them, they can do it. Disallowing player actions is in general a bad thing to do, because it lessens enjoyment. Usually that minor decrease is exceeded by the benefits of disallowing actions (ie - the increase in verisimilitude is worth telling players that they can't leap 30' without some sort of special ability)

Disallowing 5' steps during the surprise round seems to be one of those things that will realistically have zero positive effects on the enjoyment level of the game. Therefore it ends up with a net negative adjustment, and won't be done by me any time soon.

This is a great post. I agree with you. However, my players haven't said anything about wanting to do it. And as long as the monsters and NPCs don't get to do it either, I don't think it's a problem for us. Now if the players request it, I would probably (though not definitely ) allow it. In that case, of course, the monsters and NPCs would also get to do it.

I think this change (it would be a change for us) would give the surprise round much more impact. If the players want that...well, why not.

 

[Camarath]

Admittedly it is poorly written, but the basic idea is true. A free action can be taken "while taking another action" (quote from SRD). A 5' step, on the other hand, is taken before, during [as in between], or after standard or move actions. So, it can't be done if the only thing you can do is take a standard or move action.

As we have said before the "only" limit is incorrect and is contradicted by the Surprise rules. This is because "only a single move action or standard action" excludes free action which are explictly allowed by the Surprise rules.

I think this is the weakest part of my argument, but I still think I'm right.
By "during," I think the authors meant "between" and I'll tell you why. First, note that in both examples they give (PHB 144), the 5' actually takes place between, not in the course of, the actions. Second, the book says you can take a 5' step during actions (plural), not during an action (singular). This is more consistent with a "between" meaning for "during."

No deffinition of the word during means between. Here are alll of the deffinition in the Oxford English Dictionary pick one that you think fits the sentence and the words use as a preposition.

During ('djuarm), vbl. sb. [f. DURE v. + -ing1]
1. The action of the verb DURE: durtaion
2. Hardening: induration

During, ppl. a. [f. as prec. + ing2]
That dures; lasting, continuing

During ('djuarm), pres. pple. and prep. (conj.)
1. The pres. pple. DURE v. = enduring, lasting, continuing, was used in Fr. and Eng. in a construction derived from Latin ablative absolute;
thus L. vita durante, OF. vie druant, Eng. life during, while life endured or endures.
2. prep. Throughout the whole continuance of; hence, in the course of, in the time of
3. (conj.) While; until. (Also during that.) Obs. rare [cf. f. durant que, pendant que.]

Since during is used as a preposition in the sentence only the bolded deffinition fits. And I see nothing in deffinition 2 that means between.
Also Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary provides two deffinitions of during (both for the preposition) that may feel less esoteric but still do not mean between.

1 : throughout the duration of <swims every day during the summer>
2 : at a point in the course of <was offered a job during a visit to the capital>

The plural because one usally has the option taking more than one action in a round not because you can not take a 5ft step during an action.

That's fine, it may not be in the primary spot, but it is still a rule. Since nothing in the primary sections directly contradicts what is in the Action Types rules, we can't just throw out that sentence. It's perfectly consistent with the other sections.

The sentence regarding surprise rounds in the Action Types rules directly contradicts the Surprise rules on the issue of Free Actions. It also directly contradicts the 5ft Step rules. Thus since it is not the primary rule source in each case the primary sources over rule the Action Types rules on the issues of whether or not one may make free action and whether or not one may make a 5ft step.

Again, this argument doesn't work. They also don't mention move actions, and I don't think you would suggest that you can only take standard actions just because that's all that's mentioned in the Surprise Round section.

No because the rule under Action Type state "You can take a move action in place of a standard action." and since on the issue of types of actions and their uses the Action Type rules are the primary rule source one may take a move action in place of the standard action of the Surprise Round.

OK, I can make two different arguments against this.

First, a "surprise round" is not a "round." That might seem funny, but remember that an "incorporeal touch attack" is not a "touch attack."

Actually this could possibly be the case but since a Surprise Round is a special type of Round rather than a Separate type of ability that shares part of the same name as with Incorporeal touch attacks and Touch attacks I am inclined to think that all the normal rules for Rounds apply to Surprise Rounds unless stated not to.

Second, if you don't buy that argument (and I'm not even sure that I do ), I challenge the use of the word "any" in this context. This is not the only place in the PHB where the authors say "any" but clearly don't mean it. For example, the SRD says "With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet." This is clearly not true, because you cannot strike an incorporeal creature with a normal melee weapon, even when it is within 5 feet.

Actually you can strike an incorporeal creature with a normal melee weapon but it "can be harmed only by other incorporeal creatures, magic weapons or creatures that strike as magic weapons, and spells, spell-like abilities, or supernatural abilities". This means you can strike it but you will not inflict any damage.

Also some rules are modified by other rules that address that situation more specificly. For example when attacking normally if your attack roll equals or beats the target’s Armor Class, you hit and deal damage but if that target has Damage Reduction or a Miss Chance this may not be the case because the specific rules modify the general rules. This does not that the general rule is wrong just that in certain instances other rules modify its application.

I am using this deffinition for the word any (from Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary).

3 a : unmeasured or unlimited in amount, number, or extent <any quantity you desire>

 

[zoroaster100]

I saw that in the Sunless Citadel adventure, the first 3rd edition adventure WOTC put out for sale (I think) which was meant to help DM's learn the new third edition rules (back when they were new) has a description of what can be done in the surprise round that includes taking a 5' step. Of course, that was 3.0, not 3.5. Although I think the rule is not really clear, personally, I think I'll allow a 5' step with a standard action in the surprise round, as it makes the surprise round a lot more interesting and meaningful, at least until I see a clarification of the rule or I'm convinced by something or someone that there is a problem with doing it this way.

 

[Hypersmurf]

I saw that in the Sunless Citadel adventure, the first 3rd edition adventure WOTC put out for sale (I think) which was meant to help DM's learn the new third edition rules (back when they were new) has a description of what can be done in the surprise round that includes taking a 5' step. Of course, that was 3.0, not 3.5.

Right. In 3E, it was clear - in a surprise round, you could only take a partial action, and a 5' step could always be taken as part of a partial action unless you moved actual distance in the round.

-Hyp.