D&D 5E 5E AD&D Restricitons

[Ganymede81]

Well, that certainly is an opinion!

Please try to focus.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

But 5E rules do already limit creative options and prevent women from being exceptionally strong. They cannot exceed Str 20 except under special circumstances.

20 is exceptional Strength. Hell, 15 is exceptional Strength.

It just so happens that males are capped at the same value as females, thus making a statement about physical equality between male and female physiologies. That's a bit odd, but not half so odd as the fact that 5E makes the same statement of equivalence between Goliath and Gnome physiologies. I have no idea what's going on there.

I think your problem is that you're interpreting these rules with a hidden premise: that they're "making a statement" about in-universe biology at all. The cap's about bounded accuracy and encouraging diversification in ASIs. It's a gamist rule, not a simulationist one.

 

[TheCosmicKid]

How do they simulate male disadvantages? Lower pain threshholds (lower con)? Lower life expectancy? Lower intelligence (for finding hills to die on)?

How is it that "simulationism" means that someone says, "Yeah, women are weaker, so this make sense" and they have so many advantages, none of which will be reflected in gameplay?

Let's not go too far. A committed simulation of the human species would have to stat women as generally underpowered in physical activities compared to men. We don't match female athletes against male athletes, and one of the current hot controversies in sports is the advantage possessed by trans women and women with intersex conditions. Men's lower pain threshold is a myth, lower intelligence is a subject I'm not even going to touch with my trusty standard-length dungeoneering pole, and lower life expectancy doesn't exactly handicap them while they're alive. In short, you don't want to base your position on the premise that real women have compensatory advantages, because you're going to run hard into the fact that the empirical evidence suggests otherwise. Real-life biology is not concerned with fairness. But our game of make-believe still should be.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

20 is exceptional Strength. ----, 15 is exceptional Strength.

Wait. Are you arguing now that capping Str at 18 for women would not prevent female PCs from being exceptionally strong? What's your argument here?

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Wait. Are you arguing now that capping Str at 18 for women would not prevent female PCs from being exceptionally strong? What's your argument here?

That if a player wants to create a 20-Strength head-breaker, there is no reason for the game to state, suggest, or imply that they can only create this character as a man.

 

[Ganymede81]

A committed simulation of the human species would have to stat women as generally underpowered in physical activities compared to men.

Wait, why is even being suggested that this is the goal of the PHB's rules for rolling up PCs? Ignoring the underlying veracity of the claim, we don't roll up "committed simulations of the human species." We roll up individuals that are wildly exceptional in any number of unique ways. We roll up the very definition of outliers in the game world: heroes.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

Okay. What are the people defending the 1E limit signaling, then?

That a small nod to realism doesn't make you a misogynist.

 

[Ganymede81]

That a small nod to realism doesn't make you a misogynist.

That isn't realism, though. Is it realism to say that, outside of divine intervention, a human female cannot possibly be stronger than 18(50) while a human male cannot possibly be stronger than 18(00)? Absolutely not. It is bizarre silliness that doesn't even relate to any of Gygax's primary goals

And it doesn't even mesh with Gary Gygax's foreword in the PHB where these limitations originate: "You will find no pretentious dictums herein, no baseless limits arbitrarily placed on female strength."

 

[TheCosmicKid]

Wait, why is even being suggested that this is the goal of the PHB's rules for rolling up PCs? Ignoring the underlying veracity of the claim, we don't roll up "committed simulations of the human species." We roll up individuals that are wildly exceptional in any number of unique ways. We roll up the very definition of outliers in the game world: heroes.

Preaching to the choir, dude. Read the whole post.

 

[Horwath]

That if a player wants to create a 20-Strength head-breaker, there is no reason for the game to state, suggest, or imply that they can only create this character as a man.

well, if we want to be politicaly incorrect, or honest, if max str for male is 20, then 16 would be max for female. Or D&D have access to testosterone shots to mitigate womens lack of production of the same.