D&D 5E 5e completely nerfed charm - for YOU, anyway

[spectacle]

But the charm does not say you cannot attack the Vampire. "The vampire is viewed as a trusted friend". My question is, what if you stab your trusted friends? Clearly, as the Vampire is now on the list marked "friends" he is eligible to be stabbed, just like any other friend you have on the list.

The charmed condition prohibits you from attacking the charmer, so no stabbing the vampire even if that's how you usually treat trusted friends.

 

[cmad1977]

Yawn

 

[ExploderWizard]

My biggest complaint with charm and other effects in 5E is that they are too encounter focused. Too many cool effects with uses beyond the current moment have been dropped or shoehorned into the encounter time block.

Charm Person only lasts an hour no matter what level slot its cast with. Compared to AD&D this is pathetic. The AD&D version provided a useful duration based on the INT of the victim. The spell lasted a whole day minimum for a target with a 19+ INT. Average intelligence targets were affected for 3 weeks or a month. Much more useful for situations beyond a single encounter.

Friends lasts only a minute and immediately makes the target hostile. The whole purpose of using the spell is to get around using violence to get what you want. If the target becomes hostile in a minute, especially in any urban situation, then you are going to have to knock them out or kill them anyway so what was the point of using the spell? The AD&D version of the spell at least improved the duration as the caster gained levels.

Overall the thing missing most from 5E are magical effects with applications beyond a single encounter.

 

[Sunseeker]

My biggest complaint with charm and other effects in 5E is that they are too encounter focused. Too many cool effects with uses beyond the current moment have been dropped or shoehorned into the encounter time block.

Charm Person only lasts an hour no matter what level slot its cast with. Compared to AD&D this is pathetic. The AD&D version provided a useful duration based on the INT of the victim. The spell lasted a whole day minimum for a target with a 19+ INT. Average intelligence targets were affected for 3 weeks or a month. Much more useful for situations beyond a single encounter.

Friends lasts only a minute and immediately makes the target hostile. The whole purpose of using the spell is to get around using violence to get what you want. If the target becomes hostile in a minute, especially in any urban situation, then you are going to have to knock them out or kill them anyway so what was the point of using the spell? The AD&D version of the spell at least improved the duration as the caster gained levels.

Overall the thing missing most from 5E are magical effects with applications beyond a single encounter.

I'd reason that this is because a lot of people don't like sitting out sessions while the DM runs their character.

 

[Lackhand]

[MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION] -- yes, but it also removes some of the Gotta Catch 'em All from the spell -- both good and bad.

Back when charm's duration depended on intelligence, a chance encounter with an ogre (I think they used to be valid targets? Assuming they fail the save) meant a devoted follower for the rest of the adventure and potentially for months thereafter, as long as you were at least a little cagey.

Now it means the same for a single short rest, at best (and, okay, not the ogre because of targeting restrictions, but you get my point. Orog berserker. Whatever.).

I guess these days you could use Geas or something for a similar effect? Planar binding, for some targets, kinda?

Old-school long-duration Charm is too good for a PC wizard because it lets them build an army, one unwilling brick at a time. But surely eventually some army-building spells would be great.

The system needs guidelines for henchmen (followers, hirelings) and abilities and spells which interact with it. Then you can have Convert Enemy to Ally at level 6 or whatever -- a Charm with a month long duration -- and nobody will say boo because it just gives you a novel way to fill the henchman slot which the druid filled with an Awakened Bear, the rogue filled with a passel of guild apprentices, the fighter filled with their fortress and army of followers and squire, and so forth.

Without it, charm's gotta stay short-term.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I'd reason that this is because a lot of people don't like sitting out sessions while the DM runs their character.

Why would the DM be running their character? There are a few situations where a PC becomes an NPC such as being slain by certain undead or consumed by lycanthropy or something. Being under a curse, or other magical influence isn't like that. Being under the influence of a friends or charm person spell doesn't turn you into an automaton or anything.

Charm spells have been nerfed only because too many people try and treat them as a 1st level dominate person.

There was a reason that a spell like dominate person wasn't in AD&D.

 

[IgnatiusJ.Reilly]

For a wizard, they're non-spells really, I've never cast them and I've never seen anybody else cast them either. Maybe they're a bit better for other casters who don't have vastly superior spells of the equivalent level? Sadly, charm and dominate effects were a bit too good in previous editions, it's the classical over-correction in design. If at all possible, I would have preferred that monster abilities mimic spells, it's just easier that way. Even if the abilities mimicked spells, they could be made impervious to Dispel Magic and Counter-spell, if that aspect was problematic.

 

[Fanaelialae]

Friends lasts only a minute and immediately makes the target hostile. The whole purpose of using the spell is to get around using violence to get what you want. If the target becomes hostile in a minute, especially in any urban situation, then you are going to have to knock them out or kill them anyway so what was the point of using the spell? The AD&D version of the spell at least improved the duration as the caster gained levels.

Keep in mind that hostility does not necessarily imply violence. Sure, if you cast it on someone named Angersmash Hairtrigger, you should probably expect things to get bloody in a minute. On the other hand, if you use Friends to convince the local fence to tell you who sold him that pendant, it's more likely that he'll go complain to the thieves' guild than try to fight a group of well-armed murder hobos. If it's an innkeeper, he'll probably complain to the authorities unless his alignment is Psychotic Suicidal. Now, you may very well face violent repercussions down the line as a result of that hostility, but you've used the spell to get around using violence for the time being. If you make yourself scarce, you may never have to answer for it. What more should you really expect from a cantrip?

 

[NotActuallyTim]

Actually, one of my favorite possible reactions to the Friends cantrip wearing off is for the victim to cast Friends right back at the character, and then convince them to do something incredibly stupid.

 

[Sunseeker]

Why would the DM be running their character? There are a few situations where a PC becomes an NPC such as being slain by certain undead or consumed by lycanthropy or something. Being under a curse, or other magical influence isn't like that. Being under the influence of a friends or charm person spell doesn't turn you into an automaton or anything.

Charm spells have been nerfed only because too many people try and treat them as a 1st level dominate person.

There was a reason that a spell like dominate person wasn't in AD&D.

Because eventually it comes down to the player trying to interpret the best action under whatever command is given from their perspective and the DM doing the same from the enemy's perspective. A character divided cannot stand.