D&D 5E 5E economics -The Peasants are revolting!

[kigmatzomat]

D&D is not, has never been intended to be, and probably shouldn't be used as an economic model. It's intended to be a fantasy game of heroes and monsters and magic.

Even if humans as a whole could build detailed economic models that were not highly flawed for the 'real world' trying to do so in a fantasy one is wrought with difficulty.

Pretty sure when the economic elements are "income/day" and "expenses/day" we have made the spherical cow of economic systems. Not sure it gets any less detailed.

And if you read, my issue is not with the economic accuracy but the in-game implications and how the rules conflict with the flavor text.

"Ordinary people" can afford 1gp/day. Is this a setting where unskilled workers are an actual minority? If so, do PCs have to go to the small slums to hire an unskilled worker?

Or are unskilled workers a significant portion of the populace in a 4e Points of Light scenario where most people are two missed meals away from death?

The game rules are designed for a PC to interact with the world of an adventurer, not a commoner or any other NPC. They are not designed to be extrapolated outside of the narrow realm of fantasy adventuring.

Titles, followers, manors and lands have been in D&D since 1e. 5e devotes twice as much text to hirelings as it does grappling or ranged combat. So pretty sure this is a part of fantasy adventuring.

 

[MGibster]

So far as modern workforce labor is concerned, unskilled in reference to labor are those jobs which require minimal training and nothing more than a rudimentary education to perform. As far as hirlings who might be useful to PCs, which ones are skilled and unskilled?

Porters: Unskilled.
Guide: Skilled.
Wagon Driver (Coachman): Skilled.
Valet: Skilled.
Sailor: Skilled.
Cook: Skilled.
Any Fighting Person: Skilled.

 

[kigmatzomat]

So far as modern workforce labor is concerned, unskilled in reference to labor are those jobs which require minimal training and nothing more than a rudimentary education to perform. As far as hirlings who might be useful to PCs, which ones are skilled and unskilled?

Porters: Unskilled.
Guide: Skilled.
Wagon Driver (Coachman): Skilled.
Valet: Skilled.
Sailor: Skilled.
Cook: Skilled.
Any Fighting Person: Skilled.

PHB has unskilled as "Untrained hirelings are hired for menial work that requires no particular skill and can include laborers, porters, maids, and similar workers."

Given that a valet is essentially a man's maid, that ought to be unskilled. Meaning aside from the cook and the chamberlain, household servants should be unskilled labor.

Guide goes in "it depends" for me. Does it require particular skill to traverse familiar areas, even if the roads are unmarked? No, any street urchin can readily navigate the neighborhoods they grew up in, but it's worth it to a traveler to hire one to be a guide.

What about through a trackless jungle? A snowy mountsin? Or if you need water for an army? Yeah, then Guide is a skilled task.

I do love that the 1gp/day Modest lifestyle calls out "Ordinary people living modest lifestyles include soldiers with families, laborers, students, priests, hedge wizards, and the like" when laborers are explicitly 2sp/day hirelings.

I don't care about historical accuracy, I just want something approximating consistency. I want the spherical cow of expense to be scaled appropriately to the spherical cow of income.

If the townies are overcharging adventurers on rent ("1gp/day for you weirdos but Gunter is a local boy and only pays me 2sp"), overcharge the same amount for labor. ("Gunter will get your luggage to the ship for 1gp/day, you weirdo")

 

[Tonguez]

Strangely enough Prof Kenneth Hodges who compiled the Medieval Price List a 14th Century Labourer at £2 per year (£1 = 20 shillings, 1 shilling = 12 pences) So a Medieval Labourer gets 480p which means about 1.4p per day (slightly under 2p)

He also claims Welsh infantry and archers got about 2p per day, while mounted fighters got 6p, a cavalryman or trumperter got 20p. A Captain got 8 shillings a day.

Also interesting the Carpenter Guild stipend for a sick member was 14p/week (which is 2p per day). Master Craftsman were on 4 - 8p per day.

Kitchen servants might make 2 shillings per year but were feed and given lodgings

 

[Starfox]

Recent research has shown that Europe had a solid system of grain trade to supply areas of bad harvest. Famine would only become serious if harvests were bad over a very wide area. This far is what I read, from here it is my speculation.

Who would be able to buy grain and transport it into an area threatened by famine in medieval Europe? Two groups are possible; the poor (peasants, laborers, poor burghers) themselves, and the rich (the church, nobles and the bourgeoisie). The first would be first to react, but have poor resources. The rich have the resources, and evidently had the motivation. Rebellion was an issue, but especially after the Black Death, there was a labor shortage. There was also the morals of Christianity. Comparing to Asia, human lives were rarer and worth more in Europe, both inherently due to Christianity and practically because of labor shortages.

Just imagine what the mending cantrip, by itself, could do to a medieval economy. Or a decanter of endless water.

In 3E where spellcasting services were listed, a Mending spell (then a 1st level spell) would cost 10 gp. That is 50 man-days at 2 sp a day. This explains why wizards become rich - and perhaps also why they take on apprentices, once they gain a loathing of doing this repetitive labor themselves.

 

[ad_hoc]

The cost of living is for PCs.

Most of the peasants have houses and such that will reduce their cost of living per day. They can also rely on each other for help, whereas the PCs need to buy their essentials from merchants at higher costs.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Today some isekai titles talk about the economy in a fantasy world.

We should remember the possible impact of the inhuman factions. For example the genies could use their powers to create the magic version of the industrial revolution. The dragons could acquire all the companies in kingdom, if there weren't sleeping so long. Giants are too "slow" for the human economy.

And some high priests could bless with a longer life to the best artists who work for their temples.

And economy could be slowed by the witch-hunters who are searching possible infiltrators working for the dark powers (but this is a real menace).

 

[MGibster]

If the townies are overcharging adventurers on rent ("1gp/day for you weirdos but Gunter is a local boy and only pays me 2sp"), overcharge the same amount for labor. ("Gunter will get your luggage to the ship for 1gp/day, you weirdo")

In my first 5E campaign, which was kind of a silly game, I told my players all of them pay an adventuring task. The prices you see in the PHB represent what you're expected to pay as an adventurer.

 

[Cergorach]

I don't know if you've read it, but Expeditious Retreat Press published 20 years ago "A Magical Medieval Society" (Western Europe):

DriveThruRPG

preview.drivethrurpg.com

There's even a third edition of it with more material in it:

DriveThruRPG

preview.drivethrurpg.com

It's an interesting read, covering many of the questions, but also giving many different perspectives of a Lord vs a peasant.

But what people seem to forget is that those coins that you've found in a dungeon is mere change, literally and figuratively. The real wealth is in land and what that land offers. And just buying land as a non-noble... That's going to be expensive! And sir, how did you get all that gold? From the dungeon on MY land!?!? You Sir, are a thief and a scoundrel! As others have mentioned: taxes! To the Lord, the King, the Church, possibly even the Guild and the City... Also keep in mind that people that have a lot of wealth get to be the target of others out of jealousy and/or greed. And while the Rogue might detect a pickpocket attempt against other members of the party, that Rogue isn't always around...

Pretending to be low level caravan guards might be something the non-lawful might attempt, not telling people they went to the local dungeon or that they eradicated the local bandits... On the other hand, joining the local Adventurers Guild might give you some unionized protection, but you better pay all those dues and taxes, (which the Guild probably negotiated on your behalf) or else!

Magic might be more prevalent then normal, but that doesn't mean that everyone can become an adventurer, especially not a spellcaster. Maybe it's just not those stat requirements, maybe there's something else in the secret sauce, genetics, fate, unlisted stats, etc. So maybe there are a few spellcasters in the village, but would they be allowed to use their mending as a business? What do the Guilds say about that? Maybe all the Tinkers are actual spellcasters that can cast Mending cantrip and have their own Guild (and protections)... Those that can cast Comprehend Languages are translators and those that can cast Cure Wounds are healers... You can cast Unseen Servant as a ritual, when you get going you can cast 6/hour, so 6 unskilled laborers that can unload a wagon, boat/ship, dig, etc. 12sp/day, for a moderate living...

Also keep in mind that if magic is that common, it will also be available to the government, nobility and rich merchants. So that person that can cast Mending might actually be exclusively working for rich people who pay more to be on call to repair their expensive cloths, jewelry, furniture, etc. Suddenly there is work for other folks repairing for the common man for a decent fee. It's all about supply and demand, spellcasters are a limited supply and there is a high demand for their services, thus high prices, that normal folks can't afford. Fantasy medieval society isn't some communist or socialist state where all work for the common good...

Also, most people are just happy to life, rocking the boat might very well mean ending that life... That's also the reason why adventurers are relatively rare. Now if their lives become hopeless, then things might eventually change. But folks working from sun up to sun down, 7 days a week, hard, with 'ok' food and drink tend to not have the bandwidth to plan a rebellion... That's generally the realm of those that don't actually have to work that hard... And the targets of other, more lawful adventurers to squash... Keep in mind that the Lord's job is to also protect the peasantry, so the Lord is also the person that pays the other adventurers to eradicate the Orcs and Goblins that plague the lands. And let's not forget grandpa "In my time... You don't know how good you have it now kid!".

It also depends on how much the PCs flaunt their cash and how well their armed and armored. You might not want to flaunt wads of 100 dollar bills in a homeless camp. Unless of course you're carrying a machine gun, full body armor and have a couple of friends wearing the same...

Plundering the local megadungeon and dumping all that wealth in the local economy might destroy it, even when taxed into the ground. But what exactly would the PCs buy? What could they buy? Who can buy their expensive stuff? Imagine what the price of gold would do if you suddenly reveal a stash the size of 10x what's currently been mined (not just this year, but ever)? The price would implode. Besides governments wanting you to pay taxes on that gold, possibly economic charges/fines for disrupting the economy, etc. If you didn't reveal that to the world, suddenly the price wouldn't collapse and if you're careful and spend it over decades or even centuries, no harm, no foul... Just better not have a Paladin in the party... I suspect that many of the transactions between or with adventurers are of the tax evasion kind, you don't buy and/or sell that magic item in a shop, you go through a broker, often the kind of person/creature that doesn't ask a lot of questions, it does ask a hefty fee for it's services, but a lot less then what you would pay in taxes...

Now, you could do many, many cool things with this, but that's way more world building and complexity then most people are comfortable with or are willing to do. And to be honest, if the economy is beliefable enough for the participants, why bother? Even if people were thinking about (all) the implications, things get so complex so quickly that most folks can't keep track of all the many, many moving parts involved. Most just want to tell a story or do an uncomplicated evening of dungeon bashing. Generally the world building, complex economy is more for my own satisfaction as a DM then anything else...

 

[LordEntrails]

"Ordinary people" can afford 1gp/day. Is this a setting where unskilled workers are an actual minority? If so, do PCs have to go to the small slums to hire an unskilled worker?

You keep equating the adventurer's economy with the commoners. If you allow that wall to be broken down, it will give you a much more flexible view.

Or are unskilled workers a significant portion of the populace in a 4e Points of Light scenario where most people are two missed meals away from death?

What do you, the DM want it to be? Why would you let the book control your vision of the world? The books are only a guideline, a reference, an idea to use when you have nothing else to go on.

Titles, followers, manors and lands have been in D&D since 1e. 5e devotes twice as much text to hirelings as it does grappling or ranged combat. So pretty sure this is a part of fantasy adventuring.

But the economics of commoners is not. Again, separate the adventurer's economics from the rest of your world and you won't have these inconsistencies.