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5E 5e EPIC MONSTER UPDATES

dave2008

Legend
hmnn. consistent with the 3rd edition thinking process of deities and demigods. inconsistent with the 1e thinking process of deities and demigods, and inconsistent with the 5e process.
Not exactly sure what your saying, but I generally base these designs on all available versions: 1e, 3e, 4e, & 5e. I typically have not referenced 2e material as it didn't typically stat gods and their ilk as far as I know.

While the numbers look nice, i dunno. How would you convert an AD&D character with a -23 Armor Class? or a character with a THAC0 of -26?
I have no interest in converting a specific stat. I look at the designs holistically, not on an individual ability or stat basis. For example, with the Arch-Devils I ranked all 1e Arch-Devils, all 3e Arch-Devils, all 3.5 Arch-Devils, and all 4e Arch-Devils relative to each other within their system. Then used that information to develop an average relative attribute for the 5e version. This set the initial ability scores, AC, and CR. I then modified them as needed to fit my concept of each Arch-Devil (very minor tweaks so far). Then I would look at resistances and abilites common, or dominate in all versions and add those. Then I would add abilities needed for epic combats, either existing or new as needed.

I notice as characters and monsters get converted, there tends to be an inflation of monsters and a deflation of characters. Some people agree with it. Some disagree. Where do you stand?
I assume you are talking about this in general as I have not converted any characters (NPCs). Personally I don't like it as a rule, but I would look at it on a case by case basis. I generally make epic monsters stronger because they always seem weak to me. I am not nearly as familiar with NPCs
 
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dave2008

Legend
I notice as characters and monsters get converted, there tends to be an inflation of monsters and a deflation of characters. Some people agree with it. Some disagree. Where do you stand?
As follow up to my previous response: Since most groups don't get past lvl15, it seems reasonable to calibrate NPCs based on a max lvl of 15, which might result in lower overall scores. Not sure I would do that, but it makes some sense and might be the cause for phenomenon you are seeing.
 

dave2008

Legend
Shin, you are reading to much into my comments and/or their is some miscommunication going on here. I probably shouldn't have responded to the NPC / Character comment in the first place. But I quickly try to clarify.

I find that there is a problem when converting NPCs and PCs from other games, source materials, or editions. Typically, the mechanic transfer favors the monsters, and often, it favors the monsters in such a drastic way that the storyline interplay is not repeatable. Dave is claiming he stats monsters according to how he feels, in a holistic kind of way. That means he can't convert characters he has no feeling one way or another about.
That is not what I said. It is based on a holistic comparison of stats of all available editions, not one edition. I then make tweaks (mostly to powers) that I feel are appropriate or needed to square of with high level and/or epic characters. This thread is only about epic monsters. Epic characters have two good supplements on the DMsGuild and I have thread on the issue I will get to in the future. These are also first drafts. In the 2nd or 3rd draft of these monsters I will refine them based on some play testing against high level and epic characters. I currently have no desire to convert NPCs, but that may change. If I do, I will take the same approach I take with these monsters. I would not "favor" the monsters if I converted NPCs, I would follow the same approach.

That is problematic, because when it comes to things like that, even trying to discuss PCs or NPCs becomes a minefield for arguments, and instead of questions about what a given attribute converts to, you get into questions about why or whether they even should be whatever they are. Then you get things like



But does that mean the monsters are going to be recalibrated as well? Will Ancient Red Dragons now have 180 hit points? I don't think so.
You are taking that way out of context. That comment was a reason someone might do that, not a reason I would do that. As explained above, if I were to convert NPCs I would follow the same approach I do for monsters. I don't think of them any differently actually.

But whether you are talking about "Basher the 43rd" a formerly 30th level fighter with something similar to Mjolnir, (hypothetical character)
or someone like Raistlin, Elminster, Karsus, or the Dragon of Tyr,

as soon as you pass that Fuzzy grey area of 10-15th level, character performance, NPC and PC alike, starts to skyrocket rapidly into the realm of godlike beings. Yet there is a historical trend of making their stats comparable to characters completely incapable of doing what they have already done, as well as being utterly defeated in battles with creatures they have already demonstrated the ability to defeat. This is true both of the NPCs of Novels, and the Converted characters from previous editions.

In 1984, when TSR made Marvel, they used a short table of "as ____ as _____" Like "as strong as Hulk", or "As Agile as Spider man".
If you have stats in some previous edition, or a novel comparison for importing characters that obviously surpass the zone available in the content of the PHB (which is what this thread intends to do for monsters) then it is possible for others to have ball park figures to convert their favorite PCs and NPCs.

If that makes sense. Otherwise you end up with the Less Famous version of Hercules with an 18 strength.
I don't feel this rant applies to what I am doing in this thread. There is nothing I am doing that prevents someone form stating their favorite character or NPC however they want and I don't think a thread on "Epic Monsters" is the place to discuss how NPCs and Characters have been historically under represented in their stats and abilities. If this is something you wish to discuss with the community I suggest you start your a thread about it.
 

MechaTarrasque

Adventurer
The aesthetics and mechanisms of each edition are different. That means there is always going to be as much art as science in converting things. For example, 5e is more about the big power moves and legendary actions more than the list of 40 spells a god can cast. Obviously the lich (or Vecna) is the exception, since his/her gig is spell casting.
 

dave2008

Legend
I have uploaded Dispater, the Lord of Dis, to the Arch-Devils section. Thank you szymanski808 for your contribution!
 

dave2008

Legend
Do you have any plans to do some of the epic-level monsters from previous editions? Examples: Devastation Vermin, Abominations, Primal Elementals
Just wanted to let you know that I have reserved space for abominations, devastation vermin and Primal Elementals. Nothing up yet, but I think I may add some after I finish the Arch-Devils.
 

dave2008

Legend
I have uploaded Moloch to the Arch-Devils section.

I am closing in on finishing up the Arch-Devils. I should have them done in a week or two. After they are complete I am going to work on converting some more generic monsters (not unique individuals) for a while. I'm looking at you Epic Level Handbook! I need a little break from the big personalities ;)
 
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dave2008

Legend
I have uploaded Fierna to the Arch-Devils section. Thank you szymanski808 for your contribution!. Only two to go! I think I will be able to get them finished next weekend.
 

dave2008

Legend
I have added Baalzebul to the Arch-Devils section. Thank you [MENTION=6815207]szymanski808[/MENTION] for help with the Lord of the Seventh!

Now I just have one more to go - wily old Mephistopheles! Though, to be honest, I will probably update Asmodeus too. His stat-block is looking a little out of date to me now. Not really happy with attempt at a different action economy either. I think he could use a cleanup.
 

dave2008

Legend
I have added Mephistopheles, Lord of Cania, to the Arch-Devils section. Thank you [MENTION=6815207]szymanski808[/MENTION] for your help!

This is the last of the Arch-Devils; however, I am going to update Asmodeus before I leave the Nine Hells for a while. Hopefully this weekend I can get this wrapped up and then I will update the PDF as well.
 

dave2008

Legend
I have updated Asmodeus, the Overlord of Hell, in the Arch-Devils section. I think I am going to do a Pit Fiend update and then leave devils alone for a while.
 


dave2008

Legend
I don't really have experience with high level 5E, but the Pit Fiend looks like it will be stomped in no time. I'd love to see your take on it.
I've posted an updated pit fiend in the Dukes-of-Hell section. To be honest I didn't change to much, as I think it is one of the better high CR monsters (much better than the balor IMO). It was mostly a few tweaks that made it more deadly / interesting to me. Let me know what you think.
 

dave2008

Legend
After updating the pit fiend (Dukes-of-Hell section) I decided to update its demonic counterpart the balor (Demon Lords section). I upped the Balor to CR 20 like the pit fiend, but tried to make it feel more brutish as befits a demon in my mind.
 


dave2008

Legend
I like it. But, you don't think Pit Fiends (and Balors) should have a couple of legendary actions?
They definitely could. I gave them each a bonus action and reaction instead. I'm trying to find ways to make interesting and engaging monsters without always having to resort to legendary actions. It is still a work in progress :)

Although, I have been thinking about a reduced legendary actions where there is only one or two actions. That might work well for higher CR demons and devils. Of the two, I think the Pit Fiend is a better fit as I see them as the more versatile fighter compared to the brutish balor. I will give the Pit Fiend another spin when I get a minute.
 

Matrix Sorcica

Adventurer
They definitely could. I gave them each a bonus action and reaction instead. I'm trying to find ways to make interesting and engaging monsters without always having to resort to legendary actions. It is still a work in progress :)

Although, I have been thinking about a reduced legendary actions where there is only one or two actions. That might work well for higher CR demons and devils. Of the two, I think the Pit Fiend is a better fit as I see them as the more versatile fighter compared to the brutish balor. I will give the Pit Fiend another spin when I get a minute.
I was actually thinking just that when I said a couple of legendary actions :). Also, I think the pit fiend is most fitting as well.
 

dave2008

Legend
I have added Bharrai and Kaharash to the Companions category in the Celestials section. Thank you [MENTION=6801226]MechaTarrasque[/MENTION] for your contribution!
 

dave2008

Legend
Quick question for those who care: I've been wondering whether or not I should stat prismatic and force dragons, the typical "epic" dragons.

Personally I don't typically use any dragons except the original 5 chromatic and metallic (though 4e partial sold me on the additional chromatic and metallic breeds); however, if people are interested in them I will add them.
 

Faenor

Explorer
For me, I don't need more neutral or good anything. I'd rather see more epic, bad guy minions. Medium or large size, so I don't need an absurd space for the combats.
 

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