D&D 5E 5e EPIC MONSTER UPDATES

[Stalker0]

Hey Dave mate!

That seems like a crazy number of Traits/Actions etc. Wondering how I would (re)design such a monster. Hmmm.

That’s what it takes to make a real CR30

 

[dave2008]

Hey Dave mate!

That seems like a crazy number of Traits/Actions etc. Wondering how I would (re)design such a monster. Hmmm.

Yes, oddly enough my exalted monsters (deities, primordials, archfiends, etc.) will be a little easier to stat because the fact they are exalted handles a lot of the issues with high level 5e PCs. So you don't need some many other traits and actions. My 5e Monster Updates however are supposed to use standard 5e mostly, so you need a lot to both get the function and the flavor I want from a high CR monster.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Yes, oddly enough my exalted monsters (deities, primordials, archfiends, etc.) will be a little easier to stat because the fact they are exalted handles a lot of the issues with high level 5e PCs. So you don't need some many other traits and actions. My 5e Monster Updates however are supposed to use standard 5e mostly, so you need a lot to both get the function and the flavor I want from a high CR monster.

Working on my own stat-blocks for such monsters and I'm try to cut them down to the absolute basics. There is a lot of redundancy in 5E stat blocks (quick example you have a listing for Resistances, but then under traits they add 2 lines to explain Magic Resistance instead of just putting 'Magic' as one of the Resistances).

 

[Upper_Krust]

That’s what it takes to make a real CR30

Hey Stalker0!

Well I probably used to think exactly the same. But the problem with 30 ish traits/attacks/legendary actions/lair actions is that:

1. Its off putting to some DMs to read such a stat-block
2. Even if they do read it, they probably won't remember most of it (either as set-up or in play)
3. The more powers you add the less focus the monster has
4. Likewise, more powers (especially more standardized powers) increases the likelihood that more of your high CR monsters share the same powers - making everything less unique - this is doubly true for Dragons
5. With this many powers you'll probably need multiple pages to explain it all. Meaning its not a stat-block at a glance any more - especially if there is page flipping.
6. Epic Play is already numerically the most complicated so anything you can do to alleviate the complexity rather than compound it will probably help.

Of course, all that said, epic gamers and DMs are probably more used to and more tolerable of higher complexity, but even then there is always the goal to not put off new epic level players and DMs.

 

[Stalker0]

Of course, all that said, epic gamers and DMs are probably more used to and more tolerable of higher complexity, but even then there is always the goal to not put off new epic level players and DMs.

I guess it always comes down to the expectations at these levels. For example, to me the idea of "new" epic level players is a bit of an oxymoron, I expect people playing at those levels to have been around the block, and so this is a step up in complexity but not a leap. But I respect not everyone feels that way.

As for the statblock complexity, we are in agreement that all else being equal...a simpler statblock is better. Having DMed many a high level monster I always appreciate that the less a DM has to remember, the better things are. I like your idea to just put magic in the resistance area as example.

That said...the CR 30 wyrm is meant to be the "ultimate boss monster". It is basically the final fight of an 20th level game, and has to be a worthy foe against a party that has reality altering powers at their disposal. Therefore, it has to be able to hold its own against anything and everything the Player's handbook can conjure (and in theory since its a full 10 CR higher...it should do more than hold its own, it should "trounce"). In order to do that well, you have to have a lot of tools in the belt.

Its also worth considering that such a monster is probably best used as a solo or with minions (probably with minions, even with all the crazy it can deal, multiple 20th level characters are still insanely scary). That means that this monster holds ALL of the complexity of the encounter, its not a scenario where the DM is having to consult abilities on multiple monsters (which from experience is really taxing on the DM brain). You have some easy minions, and then all of your DM attention is spent on this one creature. So your complexity budget can afford to be a bit higher. If this was a "standard" monster than heck no, way too complicated, but as a monster that I am making the hallmark of the encounter (and possibly even the game), then the extra sweat I think is worth it.

I can say that even with all those abilities, running this kind of monster is way easier than running monsters from 3.5 or pathfinder at 15th+ level. Having done both, its no contest.

 

[dave2008]

Working on my own stat-blocks for such monsters and I'm try to cut them down to the absolute basics. There is a lot of redundancy in 5E stat blocks (quick example you have a listing for Resistances, but then under traits they add 2 lines to explain Magic Resistance instead of just putting 'Magic' as one of the Resistances).

True, but that is the convention and Magic resistance works differently than damage resistances. But yes, there is redundancy. Even in just the language of the actions.

For my exalted monsters I added condition resistances, which give you advantage on saves vs those effects. Thus, you don't have to have a trait every time you want to give some protection from a condition that isn't out right immunity, but in general I try not to deviate to much from the standard. Though I am definitely interested in how to simplify things and strip the language to be more concise.

 

[dave2008]

Hey Stalker0!

Well I probably used to think exactly the same. But the problem with 30 ish traits/attacks/legendary actions/lair actions is that:

1. Its off putting to some DMs to read such a stat-block
2. Even if they do read it, they probably won't remember most of it (either as set-up or in play)
3. The more powers you add the less focus the monster has
4. Likewise, more powers (especially more standardized powers) increases the likelihood that more of your high CR monsters share the same powers - making everything less unique - this is doubly true for Dragons
5. With this many powers you'll probably need multiple pages to explain it all. Meaning its not a stat-block at a glance any more - especially if there is page flipping.
6. Epic Play is already numerically the most complicated so anything you can do to alleviate the complexity rather than compound it will probably help.

Of course, all that said, epic gamers and DMs are probably more used to and more tolerable of higher complexity, but even then there is always the goal to not put off new epic level players and DMs.

I don't disagree with your points, but I am fine with game ending monsters being a lot more complex. I expect that this basically all the DM needs to really study for this encounter. Also, dragons are an extreme example. I want them to not only be challenging, but I want them the mechanics to mimic a particular flavor (thus the complex breath weapon zone trait). In reality this is a simplified version compared to where they started. Also, there are some simpler high-end monsters in that thread. Check out the Desert Leviathan. That is a simple monster that is effective for its CR 30 / mythic. I try not to use all the same tricks for each monster.

In general the monsters in my 5e Updates: Monstrous Compendium are supposed be a bit more complex than the typical 5e. It is specifically for people who want more complex 5e monsters.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I guess it always comes down to the expectations at these levels. For example, to me the idea of "new" epic level players is a bit of an oxymoron, I expect people playing at those levels to have been around the block, and so this is a step up in complexity but not a leap. But I respect not everyone feels that way.

Howdy Stalker0!

Its easy to just go with the complexity of epic gaming and add MOAR stuff (as they say). I think maybe its harder to make iconic epic monsters in as few abilities as possible.

As for the statblock complexity, we are in agreement that all else being equal...a simpler statblock is better. Having DMed many a high level monster I always appreciate that the less a DM has to remember, the better things are. I like your idea to just put magic in the resistance area as example.

The best monsters* in the 3E Epic Level Handbook were all simple in concept (if not always execution).

*Atropal, Hekatonkeres, Xixecal etc.

That said...the CR 30 wyrm is meant to be the "ultimate boss monster". It is basically the final fight of an 20th level game, and has to be a worthy foe against a party that has reality altering powers at their disposal. Therefore, it has to be able to hold its own against anything and everything the Player's handbook can conjure (and in theory since its a full 10 CR higher...it should do more than hold its own, it should "trounce"). In order to do that well, you have to have a lot of tools in the belt.

Yes and no. Dave has designed monsters of at least CR 50 (and possibly beyond). So in terms of 'epic' CR 30 is hardly the Ultimate Boss Monster (although I get the point you are trying to make). But I am not sure it needs to have a lot of tools in the belt. Conceptually it would be better to be great at 2 or 3 things rather than good at everything.

If you were designing Thor as an opponent you could hypothetically boil him down to 3 key powers.

Its also worth considering that such a monster is probably best used as a solo or with minions (probably with minions, even with all the crazy it can deal, multiple 20th level characters are still insanely scary). That means that this monster holds ALL of the complexity of the encounter, its not a scenario where the DM is having to consult abilities on multiple monsters (which from experience is really taxing on the DM brain). You have some easy minions, and then all of your DM attention is spent on this one creature. So your complexity budget can afford to be a bit higher. If this was a "standard" monster than heck no, way too complicated, but as a monster that I am making the hallmark of the encounter (and possibly even the game), then the extra sweat I think is worth it.

Maybe the dragon's scales became sentient insect-like minions that can detach or fall off. The Dragon's hide is tougher with the minion's attached (Scalebound Form: Better AC & Damage Reduction) but the 'Living Scales' can attack of their own accord and swarm the PCs and the Scaleless Form could be faster/cast better spells.

I can say that even with all those abilities, running this kind of monster is way easier than running monsters from 3.5 or pathfinder at 15th+ level. Having done both, its no contest.

Certainly 5E is much simpler than 3E/Pathfinder.

 

[Upper_Krust]

True, but that is the convention and Magic resistance works differently than damage resistances.

If Epic Players/DMs can handle the complexity they sure as hell can handle the simplicity.

But yes, there is redundancy. Even in just the language of the actions.

For my exalted monsters I added condition resistances, which give you advantage on saves vs those effects. Thus, you don't have to have a trait every time you want to give some protection from a condition that isn't out right immunity, but in general I try not to deviate to much from the standard. Though I am definitely interested in how to simplify things and strip the language to be more concise.

For better or worse I'm going to try my best to simplify the epic stat blocks as much as possible.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I don't disagree with your points, but I am fine with game ending monsters being a lot more complex. I expect that this basically all the DM needs to really study for this encounter. Also, dragons are an extreme example. I want them to not only be challenging, but I want them the mechanics to mimic a particular flavor (thus the complex breath weapon zone trait). In reality this is a simplified version compared to where they started. Also, there are some simpler high-end monsters in that thread. Check out the Desert Leviathan. That is a simple monster that is effective for its CR 30 / mythic. I try not to use all the same tricks for each monster.

In general the monsters in my 5e Updates: Monstrous Compendium are supposed be a bit more complex than the typical 5e. It is specifically for people who want more complex 5e monsters.

I like that Desert Leviathan monster you cooked up, very nice. Colossal Trait seems like something obvious DMs would take for granted. Thick Skin (Damage Reduction) could be added after Hit Points. Magic Weapon and Siege Monster (as with Colossal Trait) could probably be removed or folded into a note on Colossal size monsters in the rules.