Cleon
Legend
Action text of Howl from the Grave, Jaws of Ruination and Summon Spectral Pack are all different from the Enworld version of the Gnoll Beast Shaman.
The rest looks fine.
5E: Fifth Edition Monster Variants Inspired by Fourth Edition Sources
- Thread starter Cleon
- Start date
Action text of Howl from the Grave, Jaws of Ruination and Summon Spectral Pack are all different from the Enworld version of the Gnoll Beast Shaman.
The rest looks fine.
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
oops, fixed - Gnoll Beast Shaman
Cleon
Legend
That looks good.
Updated the 5E Monsters Inspired by Fourth Edition Index and added the Gnoll Beast Shaman to the Completed Fifth Edition Creatures Index.
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
...should this be "Index of 5e Versions of Official 4e Monsters"?
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
Cleon
Legend
Maybe rephrase it to.
This thread's for conversions of Fourth Edition D&D monsters variations that do not exist in Fifth Edition. Mostly because the 4E monster has interesting game mechanics the 5E incarnation lacks.
Cleon
Legend
O-kay, tweaked/added some numbers for chaos savant and have this:
Looks pretty good at first glance.
It's a lot more powerful than a standard Challenge 3 Derro Savant. I'm assuming you want it to be Challenge 9 to match the PCs?
Actually, looking at its attacks it may be too weedy to be CR 9. Its damage output is only 42 DPR which is typical for a Challenge 6 character.
Will need to check the CR Calculator and see what is says.
It's got Innate Spellcasting rather than Spellcasting, although it's erroneously listed as Spellcasting like the official Derro Savant.
Not 100% sure about that. It is a bit more in keeping with the original 1E Savants, which had a random hodge-podge of SLAs rather than being regular spellcasters, but the standard 5E Savant is a 5th-level spellcaster.
Hmm, I guess it could be some kind of warlock-style caster instead of a wizard-style caster. That might fit the power suite.
In Skills I would reconsider the Perception proficiency. Wouldn't Arcana and maybe some other knowledge-based skill be more appropriate? It is a Savant after all.
How did you calculate its +4 to hit with a Chaos Staff? If it's STR-based it'd be +3. If it's DEX-based it'd be +6.
Its Ranged Spell Attack would be +8 to hit with CHA 18 and Challenge 9, not the +6 in its Bolts of Chaos. Speaking of which, it should probably have "spell save DC 16, +8 to hit with spell attacks" in Spellcasting (or Innate Spellcasting).
Finally, if we're going this far we might as well go whole hog and give it a Window to Madness ability like the 4E Derro Savant.
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
Cleon
Legend
ok ditched perception, added arcana, and moved spellcasting back into actions. My intention was not exactly CR 9 but buffing it so significantly stronger than savant to mix up using derro at a range of levels. Happy to adjuct CR slightly
Don't mind it at Challenge 9 if that's where you want it. The 4E Derro Savant was a mid-level opponent of Level 16 after all. That's tougher than a Vrock or Hill Giant (both Level 13 in 4E, and CR 5 and 6 in 5E).
If it were just me doing the conversion, I'd aim for around Challenge 5 or 7 for a Derro Savant, but I'm fine pitching for 9 if you prefer.
Running the numbers of the above through the CR Calculator it comes to Challenge 6 with AC 17 and Challenge 5 if we trim the AC down a point or two.
I'll use CR 5 and AC 16 for my first rough draft.
I'll update the Enworld Derro Chaos Savant with said Rough Draft, which includes a few suggested tweaks, notably.
I'd rename the Fiendish Blessing to, say, Armor of the Insane and model it more on Mage Armor or Demonskin (i.e. it magically provides a substitute AC rather than boosting whatever mundane armor it is wearing).
Don't like the humanoid-average Wisdom. Derro have very low Wisdom. The standard Savant has WIS 5. I'd give it, say, WIS 7 and add a special trait that allows it to use CHA on certain WIS-keyed abilities like Saves and maybe Perception.
Heck, it's a Sage so maybe it can use Intelligence on Perception rolls instead of Wisdom?
Its Chaos Staff has a poor chance to hit and it's missing the damage penalty from the savant's low strength. So I had a realization: make it a Melee Spell Attack that uses the staff as an implement. That gives it a much better CHA-based to hit and means you don't have to apply the –1 damage penalty for its STR.
If we're giving it the Strength of Madness ability of the Fourth Edition Derro Savant that could boost its Chaos Staff attack to be competitive or better than its Bolts of Chaos. However, Strength of Madness only lasts for a round and I'm leaning towards it giving a bonus damage die and advantage to melee attacks like the 4E original.
I'd also suggest having its Staff attacks inflict the same special conditions as its Bolts (i.e. CON save or be necrotic/poison/cold/lightning hampered).
Oh, and I'd rewrite Mind Scourge to do some damage on a failed save. Maybe have it do 3d6 psychic when it hits and then the target rolls a save, and if they FAIL they choose whether to take more damage or be stunned the next turn?
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Casimir Liber
Adventurer
Cleon
Legend
I rough-drafted my proposals in the Enworld Derro Chaos Savant:
Wouldn't include "Will of Madness" (which is "Mad Insight" in my version) as substituting CHA for STR with the Chaos Staff.
I was thinking of making the Staff a magic implement, so the Savant uses its Spellcasting to-hit with it and it does statless damage like a spell.
My other idea was giving Strength of Madness a worthwhile duration/frequency and use that to give its Chaos Staff a decent chance of hitting & doing damage.
The 4E Derro Savant has a good chance of hitting with its Scourge (the equivalent to our boy's Staff), as it has a +21 to hit in melee and is a Level 16 Controller. Its Mind Scourge ranged attack is +19.
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
was being lazy saving screenshots...
ok, will change back to "Mad Insight" - just pondering if dndbeyond will be too clunky in statblock format - i.e. I don't think there is any way to put a proviso or footnote in the statblock about substituting CHA for WIS, or is a note in the traits section enough.
Aslo tweaked
Mind Scourge. The chaos savant targets one creature within 60 feet, who takes 10 (3d6) psychic damage, and must make a DC 16 Intelligence saving throw or choose to be stunned or take a further 10 (3d6) psychic damage the next turn.
Strength of Madness (Recharge 4-6). The chaos savant imbues preternatural strength into its melee weapon blows and doubles its attribute modifier in to hit and damage rolls.
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Cleon
Legend
Do you prefer option A or B for the Mad Insight?
Hmm, I'd prefer…
Mind Scourge. The chaos savant targets one creature within 60 feet, who takes 10 (3d6) psychic damage and must make a DC 15 Intelligence saving throw. If the save fails, then at the start of the target's next turn it must choose between taking an additional further 10 (3d6) psychic damage or being stunned until the end of their turn.
A bit wordier but clearer.
For Strength of Madness, I was thinking of taking a different approach, like so:
Strength of Madness (Recharges After Short Rest.). Until the end of the chaos savant's turn, all the savant's melee attacks have advantage on rolls to hit and inflict an additional # (#d#) damage.
That's seems more in keeping with the original version.
We'll need to decide how much the bonus damage is. I was thinking maybe 3 (1d6), 5 (2d4) or 7 (2d6) but it partially depends on the frequency.
If you want to make it Recharge 4-6 I'd recommend giving it a lower damage boost than if it was Recharge After a Short Rest since it'll add the possibility of it kicking off multiple times.
Don't care as much for the proposal above, since (a) it doesn't have a duration stated. Is it only for the next attacks? Every attack during the encounter? and (b) doubling the modifier for to hit and damage feels too "swingey" as it could either be overpowered (if it's CHA-based that's +8 to hit and damage instead of +4) or worse than useless (if it's using a regular STR-based weapon as its STR modifier is negative 1!).
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
The main reason I like a recharge as it is more random and in keeping with the derro's random/chaotic nature, so maybe a recharge 5-6 for x damage roll only?
Cleon
Legend
Fine. I can go along with Recharge 5-6. We just need to figure out what amount of extra damage would be appropriate, and that's a simple matter of keeping its DPR within the target Challenge Rating.
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
I get CR 6 right now without any strength of madness
It remains pr 6 - if recharges on 5-6 but shifts into CR 7 with recharge 4-6 (with + 4 damage)
It remains pr 6 - if recharges on 5-6 but shifts into CR 7 with recharge 4-6 (with + 4 damage)
Cleon
Legend
I get Challenge 6 with a +1d8 damage Strength of Madness with either 4-6 or 5-6 recharge. The difference to the DPR is only 2¼, remember.
Although that's not allowing for the advantage on the attack rolls. I've tried checking various "advantage on attack" features on the CR Calculator and the rarely triggered ones like Ambusher and Pack Tactics keep it at CR 6, Blood Frenzy makes it CR 7.
The Calculator seems to figure it out by just boosting the to hit: those first two features give +1 apiece (so an Ambushing Pack Hunter has +2 in total), while the Blood Frenzied one gets a whopping +4!
I'd eyeball it as being roughly par for a +2, which is still Challenge 6 (2,300 XP).
However, we've not factoring in the special effects of its Bolts, Staff* and Mind Scourge as well as its useful spells like slow and invisibility.
Throwing them all together, and it might be edging into Challenge 7 (2,900 XP).
*Assuming we give its Chaos Staff blows the same special effects as its Bolts of Chaos like I suggest.
