5E: Fifth Edition Monster Variants Inspired by Fourth Edition Sources

[Cleon]

Another Fourth Edition inspired tweak I was toying with was giving the butcher Truesight, since 4E Fomorians (Fourmorians? 4ormorians?) come with truesight 6 as standard.

So I was thinking we might add truesight 30 ft. or truesight 60 ft. to Senses or make it an Action or Trait, maybe like one of the following (or permutations thereof):

Eye of the Fey #1. The fomorian butcher gains truesight with a 60 foot range for 1d6 rounds.​

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Eye of the Fey #2. The fomorian butcher's truesight increases to 60 foot range for 1 minute and has an unlimited range against creatures affected by its Curse of the Evil Eye. The effect ends if it uses Evil Eye.​

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Eye of the Fey #3. The fomorian butcher gains truesight with a 60 foot range for 1 minute. The effect ends if it uses Evil Eye or Curse of the Evil Eye.​

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See the Cursed #1. The fomorian butcher's truesight has an unlimited range against creatures affected by its Curse of the Evil Eye.​

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See the Cursed #2. The fomorian butcher's truesight has an unlimited range against creatures affected by its Evil Eye or Curse of the Evil Eye.​

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See the Cursed #3. The fomorian butcher's truesight has an unlimited range against creatures affected by the Evil Eye or Curse of the Evil Eye of a fomorian.​

I could see the "Cursesight" extending to some Fomorians being able to scry on a cursed victim that it doesn't have line-of-sight on, but that feels too overboard for the Butcher. I'm after this being a simple gruesomely chopping its foe to pieces opponent.

We could add the See the Cursed text to Curse of the Evil Eye and not have it as a Trait, or maybe take a belt and braces approach of making it a trait and mentioning it in the curse's text.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Interesting - I don't see the cursesight achieving very much though (like the concept though). I think for ease of DMing it, I'd go for adding it to senses, but (?) 120 ft to those afflicted by its Curse of the Evil Eye (?)

have adopted rest

 

[Cleon]

Interesting - I don't see the cursesight achieving very much though (like the concept though). I think for ease of DMing it, I'd go for adding it to senses, but (?) 120 ft to those afflicted by its Curse of the Evil Eye (?)

have adopted rest

The simplest option is to just give it truesight 60 ft. and call it a day, either as a standard Sense or an ability it can activate (i.e. Eye of the Fey).

We don't have to use everything, I'm just throwing ideas and seeing what sticks.

 

[Casimir Liber]

yeah I think just doing that is best.

 

[Cleon]

yeah I think just doing that is best.

Right-ho. Then I'll use the minimalist approach of just the Truesight.

Updating the Fomorian Butcher…

 

[Casimir Liber]

..ok now pondering a reaction.

 

[Cleon]

Okay, the next question is the Saving Throws.

Your current rough draft has two saving throws, STR and CON, which is OK but is doubling up with its strongest stats. Those are already its best saves, which leaves its other saves weak, especially the mental ones.

For comparison, the standard giants have:

Hill (CR 5): None
Stone (CR 7): DEX, CON, WIS
Frost (CR 8): CON, WIS, CHA
Fire (CR 9): DEX, CON, CHA
Cloud (CR 9): CON, WIS, CHA
Storm (CR 13): STR, CON, WIS, CHA

So let's see, that's five CONs, four CHAs and WISs, two DEXs and only one STR save proficiencies.

Hmm… it's quite noticeable that only one giant has STRENGTH as a save proficiency, so maybe we should swap that for another stat like WIS or CHA? Maybe CHARISMA? I like the idea of the Butcher being a particularly scary giant.

Alternatively, we could give it more proficiencies since all the standard giants of around the Butcher's Challenge have three or more. I'd be game for giving it CON, WIS, CHA like the Frost or Cloud Giants and if you want to keep the STR proficiency I might be persuaded to make it STR, CON, WIS, CHA like a Storm or perhaps STR, CON, CHA (or possibly STR, CON, WIS?).

However, if we increase the save proficiencies above 2 that's make the Fomorian Butcher Challenge 13 and Proficiency Bonus +5, meaning all its PB-based numbers would go up by one.

I kind of like it either way, either a tough and scary giant (CON, CHA) or one that covers all its bases apart from being a bit dim and clumsy (STR, CON, WIS, CHA) or something in between (CON, WIS, CHA or STR, CON, CHA).

 

[Cleon]

I like the idea of the Butcher being a particularly scary giant.

Speaking of it being particularly scary, what do you think of adding Intimidation to its Skills?

The standard issue Fomorian Warrior and its Painbringer big brother both have Intimidate as their only skill, implying it's a common fomorian skill.

I know the original 4E Butcher doesn't have Intimidate, but it doesn't have ANY skills and we've already given it the Perception and Stealth of the 5E version.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Yes to intimidation.
I think adding WIS CHA as saves is good (to CON)

 

[Cleon]

Yes to intimidation.
I think adding WIS CHA as saves is good (to CON)

So you're OK making it CR 13 then?

I'll update the numbers on the Enworld Version in due course.

That might gives us a little more room to manouever, as it makes the Butcher Offensive CR 13 Defensive CR 12.

If you insist on giving it a Reaction (which I'm still not entirely on board with) it can do some OK damage without tipping it into Challenge 14 territory. (i.e. make it Offensive CR 14 & Defensive CR 12 for an average of 12).

Alternatively, we could let it add some scrap armour and boost its AC by a couple of points, since the original AD&D version was noted as sometimes doing that. (which'd boost its Defensive CR to 13 to match its Offensive CR).

However, I haven't fully factored in the "Fomorian Butchery" into the current CR since, frankly, I'm not sure how the "mutilated" penalties if imparts would increase its CR. My gut tells me it's at least one Offensive Challenge Rating boost, which'd mean its ALREADY Offensive 14/Defensive 12 with three saves and we should be wary of adding anything more to it.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Yep, CR 13 fine - scrap armour is good

even a reaction with recharge 5-6 or 6 is good to add some variety and curb too big an unbalance I guess

 

[Cleon]

Yep, CR 13 fine - scrap armour is good

Okay, here goes nothing…

Updating the Fomorian Butcher.

I've changed the Butchery DC to DEX-based rather than STR-based so the DC matches its Evil Eye effects, since the effects are a bloodier version of the basic Fomorian's Evil Eye Curse that has a relatively restrained DC 14.

 

[Cleon]

even a reaction with recharge 5-6 or 6 is good to add some variety and curb too big an unbalance I guess

If you want some variety, how about adding some minor battlefield control power. Like the Fomorian Butcher pushes an opponent away from itself by booting them in the face, shoving with a free hand or shoulder-slamming them.

Maybe modify the Tail-Flick attack of the Gurgohemoth?

Tail-Flick. Melee Weapon Attack: +16 to hit, reach 20 ft., one target. Hit: No damage on hit, but target must make a DC 22 Dexterity or Strength saving throw (target's choice). The target takes 3 (d6) bludgeoning damage on a successful save, but on a failed save the target suffers the following:
 If the target is Large size or smaller, they are thrown a distance of up to 30 ft. (6d6 + 9) in a random direction, or 15 ft. (2d8 + 6) for a Large creature. When the target hits the ground it takes 10 (3d6) falling (bludgeoning) damage and lands prone. If the gurgohemoth flicks its victim over a cliff or into a pit that also causes falling damage, the target takes whichever falling damage rolls higher (do not add the tail-flick's 3d6 falling damage to other falling damage).
 If the target is Huge size or bigger, the tail knocks them over, the target takes 10 (3d6) falling (bludgeoning) damage and falls prone.

So something like…

Actions​

Combat Shove. Melee Weapon Attack: +13 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: The target must make a DC 21 Dexterity or Strength saving throw [or a DC 21 Acrobatics or Athletics check?] (target's choice). The target takes 3 (d6) bludgeoning damage on a successful save, but on a failed save the target suffers the following:​

 If the target is Large size or smaller, they are thrown 20 ft. (4d6 + 6) away from the fomorian butcher, or 10 ft. (2d6 + 3) away for a Large creature, moving in a direction chosen by the giant. When the target hits the ground it takes 7 (2d6) falling (bludgeoning) damage and lands prone. If the butcher shoves its victim over a cliff or into a pit that also causes falling damage, the target takes whichever falling damage rolls higher (do not add the shove's 2d6 falling damage to other falling damage).​

 If the target is Huge size or bigger, the shove knocks them over, the target takes 7 (2d6) falling (bludgeoning) damage and falls prone.​

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Reactions​

Reaction. If an opponent TRIGGERING CONDITION, the fomorian butcher uses Combat Shove against that opponent as its reaction.​

That has the additional perk of giving the Fomorian a means to apply the Prone condition to an enemy, which makes them vulnerable to its Fomorian Butchery attack. Not that I'm Fomorian Butcher's are sadists that enjoy brutally mutilating Player Characters adventurers.

 

[Casimir Liber]

Oh yes Combat Shove sounds good. Agree on DEX for Butchery.

Reaction. If an opponent moves within melee range of the fomorian butcher, the fomorian butcher uses Combat Shove against that opponent as its reaction.

 

[Cleon]

Oh yes Combat Shove sounds good. Agree on DEX for Butchery.

Reaction. If an opponent moves within melee range of the fomorian butcher, the fomorian butcher uses Combat Shove against that opponent as its reaction.

Works for me. Shall we use the DEX or STR save, the Acrobatics or Athletics check, or both?

Not entirely enamored of the name Combat Shove. It was just the first thing that sprung to my mind. Would be open to changing it if we can come up with something better.

 

[Casimir Liber]

keep it simple - Acrobatics or Athletics check fine (preferred save to begin with but maybe skills are a better idea.)

"Push and Shove" ..."Aggro Shove" ...."Shoulder Charge" ....or just "Shove"?

 

[Cleon]

keep it simple - Acrobatics or Athletics check fine (preferred save to begin with but maybe skills are a better idea.)

If you prefer the Saves I'm fine keeping that, and it follows standard 5E precedent better.

Monster attack actions aren't usually resisted by Skills.

"Push and Shove" ..."Aggro Shove" ...."Shoulder Charge" ....or just "Shove"?

I like the simplicity of Shove, let's use that.

 

[Casimir Liber]

agreed

 

[Cleon]

agreed

Updating the Fomorian Butcher.

We still need a name for the Reaction version of Shove.

Hmm… Push Intruder or Reactive Shove perhaps?

Any ideas?

 

[Casimir Liber]

I'd go with Reactive Shove - other sounds a bit odd. Maybe Reflex Shove ?