Cleon
Legend
Looks fine.
Updating 5E Monsters Inspired by Fourth Edition and Completed Fifth Edition Creatures Index.
So which next, the Fomorian Butcher? (Enworld blank here)
5E: Fifth Edition Monster Variants Inspired by Fourth Edition Sources
- Thread starter Cleon
- Start date
Looks fine.
Updating 5E Monsters Inspired by Fourth Edition and Completed Fifth Edition Creatures Index.
So which next, the Fomorian Butcher? (Enworld blank here)
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
Cleon
Legend
The 4E Butcher was an Elite so had way more hit points than a regular monster.
I guess the 5E version of that would make it a champion-type creature that's a higher Challenge than a regular CR 8 Formorian.
Will have to check the rough draft and get back to you later for a detailed critique, but I immediately noticed its Skills are wonky.
Formorians have double Perception Proficiency, so the Butcher should have Perception +10 from its WIS 14 (+2) and twice its CR 12's +4 Proficiency Bonus (+8). That also gives it passive Perception 20 in Senses.
You've given it a point higher DEX modifier (+1) and Proficiency (+4) so it should have Stealth +5.
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
Yeah, I buffed it quite alot - forgot about upgrading skills. Anyway, I aimed for CR 12 and 250hp - think we should go higher?
Cleon
Legend
No, I reckon 250 hit points is plenty. That's already more-or-less the same as the 230 hp of a stock Storm Giant.
The CR can always be tweaked a point up or down as the stats are polished, but since you appear to have a particular in-game use in mind I'm presuming you want to aim for a certain Encounter Level for the Butcher and whatever buddies he or she has helping it fight.
A 4E Elite was usually assumed to be accompanied by at least another elite or three or four standard monsters that were more or less level-matched. If the 5E version is too powerful then any regular Formorians its palling up with won't make a significant contribution to the battle.
Contrariwise, if it's only a few CR higher than a normal Fomorian it can still stand out in a fight alongside them if it has interesting abilities.
Anyhow, I'd better update the Enworld Fomorian Butcher with the basic stats.
Cleon
Legend
So in other words, I'd be fine making it, say, around Challenge 10 if you'd prefer something closer to a regular CR 8 Fomorian.
A bog standard 4E Fomorian has 332 hp (the Fomorian Warrior from the Monster Manual 1) compared to the 4E Butcher's 514 hp. Since once is a Level 17 Elite Soldier and the other a Level 22 Elite Brute that isn't much of a jump in 4E systems.
Also note that a regular 4E Fomorian is an Elite: There seems to be no such thing as a standard monster Fomorian in 4E, they're all either Elites or Solos. That suggests the 5E standard CR 8 Fomorian is elite-comparable too.
Still, a Butcher is only slightly lower level than a Storm Giant in 4E (Level 22 vs Level 24) suggesting CR 11 or 12 is more appropriate than 10, since those giants are CR 13 in 5E.
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
Happy to leave at CR 12 statted out as I did with 250hp then
Cleon
Legend
That's fine by me, I'll work through the statblock in order like usual.
Armour Class 15 is fine, I've okayed the 250 hp above and Speed is the standard Fomorian 30 feet.
Looking at that Speed raises some notable differences in design philosophy between the 4E version of the Fomorian compared to earlier editions and 5E.
The 5E Fomorian is comparatively slow for a giant (30 ft. while most giants are 40 ft. or faster than humans). This follows AD&D Fomorians, which are pretty slow (MV 9", the same as a medium armored human while a standard giant is as fast or faster than an unencumbered human (e.g. 12" for hill giant, 15" for storm giant).
Contrariwise, a 3E and 4E Fomorian is fairly fast and agile despite its deformities. A standard Monster Manual II Fomorian is Speed 40 feet and DEX 12, while a 4E Fomorian Warrior is Speed 8 and DEX 15.
The original Butcher is Speed 8 and has a Dexterity of 19.
I'm fine with the DEX 12, but how about giving it Speed 40 feet like the 3E/4E versions as an unpleasant surprise for PCs who calculate their placement on the assumption it's as slow as its brethren?
Ability Scores might do with some tweaking, depending on how faithful to the 4E version we want to be.
A standard 5E Fomorian (CR 8) has Str 23 Dex 10 Con 20 Int 9 Wis 12 Cha 6, so how does that compare to the Fourth Edition versions?
The "basic Fomorians" from the 4E Monster Manual are:
A 4E Fomorian Warrior (Level 17 Elite Soldier) is Str 30 Dex 15 Con 22 Int 11 Wis 10 Cha 18.
A 4E Fomorian Painbringer (Level 19 Elite Controller) is Str 24 Dex 9 Con 21 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 21.
The 4E Monster Manual 2 Fomorian Butcher (Level 22 Elite Brute) is Str 27 Dex 19 Con 27 Int 11 Wis 10 Cha 20.
Strength. So the Butcher is pretty strong. It's worth pointing out that the Warrior is the only Fomorian in either of the Monster Manuals and King of the Trollhaunt Warrens with a higher Strength, all the others except for the Totemist (which matches its Str 27) are weaker, ranging from the Str 13 Ghost Shaman to the Cackler and Painbringer (both Str 24).
Some of those strength scores are comparable to a Storm Giant (a standard 4E Storm Giant is Str 30 like a Fomorian Warrior, a Thunder Tempest is Str 24), so the current Strength 26 is fine, or we could do an exact match and make it Str 27 like the original.
Indeed, Strength 27 is rather tempting as the 4E Butcher is stronger than a 4E Fire Giant (which range from Str 23 to 25 in Monster Manual & Monster Manual 3). The extra point won't make any difference to its modifier after all.
That said, it may be desirable to trim it down to Str 25 like a Fire Giant if we're aiming for Challenge 12. If my back-of-an-envelope calculations are correct its to hit and DPR are currently too high for CR 12.
Dexterity. This is were the first major edition difference jumps out. 4E Fomorians tend to have considerably higher Dexterities than other editions. That's down to general ability inflation though. A bog standard 4E Fire Giant is DEX 11, for example, but the rest range from the DEX 15 Forgecaller to the DEX 22 (!) Flamedancer while the 4E Fomorians also top out at DEX 22 with the Totemist.
That could be interpreted as wanting to give the Butcher a higher DEX, maybe 14 like a 5E Storm Giant, but I'm happy keeping it DEX 12. Firstly, the Butcher has a low AC for its level (a characteristic of 4E Brutes, which tend to be easy to hit but have piles of HP). Secondly, there's the ability inflation issue mentioned above.
If we want to mix it up a bit I'd be OK making it DEX 13, but I'll leave it as is for the time being.
Constitution. This really stands out. The 4E Butcher is SUPER tough with a Constitution of 27, the highest of any Fomorian (most range from 20 to 24 but there are two Con 18 caster-types in Trollhaunt Warrens). That's better than ANY 4E Fire Giant (which have CON 20 or 22) and almost as good as a 4E Storm Giant (CON 28). Indeed it's BETTER than some Storm Titans (the three published ones have CON 20, 23, 28 and 29).
However, this is already covered with the current draft's CON 22, which is better than the CON 20 of a standard 5E Storm Giant and Fomorian. Let's leave it at 22 for the time being.
Intelligence. The Butcher is, frankly, a bit dim for a 4E Fomorian. The original has the same Intelligence 11 as a Fomorian Warrior. That suggests its wits are mediocre. The 5E Fomorian has INT 9, giving it the same average Intelligence as its AD&D counterpart who were INTELLIGENCE: Average (8-10).
I'd give the Butcher INT 9 like a regular 5E Fomorian.
Wisdom. Hmm, let's just give it the same WIS 14 as a standard 5E Fomorian, as the 4E Butcher Butcher has WIS 10 like a Fomorian Warrior.
Charisma. Now here's a problem. The 4E Fomorians are way more charismatic than other editions. The lowest is the Cackler, with CHA 13, but that's a real outlier as the others range from the CHA 18 Warrior to the CHA 24 Ghost Shaman and Dark Initiate.
The Butcher has CHA 20, almost as good as the standard 4E Storm Giant's CHA 22 and better than most stock 4E Giants. It's only beaten by "specialists" like the Frost Giant's CHA 23 Chieftain and CHA 22 Ice Shaper.
That suggests a Charisma score for the Butcher considerable better than 8! Since the 4E version is a rung lower than a Storm Giant, and those have CHA 18 in 5E, how about CHA 16? Or maybe tone it down another plus to CHA 14 or 15?
Putting that all together would result in the following, which keeps the two-odd four-even ability scores of the 5E Monster Manual version:
Abilities: Str 27 Dex 12 Con 22 Int 9 Wis 14 Cha 16.
Or Str 25/26, Dex 13, Cha 14/15 with tweaks?
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
Have gone with Str 27 Dex 12 Con 22 Int 9 Wis 14 Cha 16 - the 5e issue with PCs with high AC being unhittable is a problem, so I like STR 27 and extra bonus to hit for that reason
Cleon
Legend
Updating the Fomorian Butcher.
Don't think the "to hit" issue is a big deal since the Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating table gives a typical attack bonus for CR 12 of+8 and the Butcher will be way above that with its Strength and Proficiency Bonuses.
We can always lower the damage a bit instead. It'd be easy enough to reduce the number and/or size of damage dice dealt by its melee attacks.
Designwise it's main obvious weakness is the poor ranged attack, as it only has its Evil Eye. That's true to the original, so I'd consider it a feature rather than a bug.
Cleon
Legend
What about the "shall we make it as fast as a regular giant" question?
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
Oh crap, yes made them 40ft
Cleon
Legend
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
ok so attacks...?
Cleon
Legend
I've got a pile of ideas for its actions but need to sort them out first.
Before that, the current draft does way too much damage to be Challenge 12.
Typically, it'll Multiattack with either three Falchion attacks (66 damage) or two falchion attacks plus an Evil Eye (71 damage). If ONE of those falchion attacks hit, which seems likely, it gets to use Fomorian Butchery for +22 damage both that round and its NEXT round, as the butchery in your draft says "since the start of its previous turn".
Let's see, so if has four or six tries at +12 to hit, if it's facing a target with, say, AC 18 it needs a 6+ to hit for a 75% chance of hitting, meaning the odds of it missing ALL of its falchion blows is at worst 0.39% (for four attacks) and at best 0.0244% (for six attacks).
So the butchery's almost a given, increasing the DPR from 66 or 71 to 88 or 93. Plus even if it doesn't get to use its Reaction for butchery, you've given it an opportunity attack with Falchion Mastery so it'll probably get to attack with that too.
Plus as the cherry on the top, you've given it the option of making an extra attack with its falchion if it scores a critical from Fomorian Brutality. With three attacks a round it has a 14.2625% chance of triggering. That adds another 3.13 or so to the DPR for an average damage around 91 to 96.
Putting those numbers in the CR Calculator says its Challenge Rating 14 not 12.
What I'd do is trim down the number of attacks and likely modify or add a few actions to make the combat a bit more interesting. At the moment, the optimal strategy for the Butcher is Curse of the Evil Eye and then nothing but slash attacks with the occasional Evil Eye for spice.
That seems a bit monotonous and apart from the bonus attacks and damage type doesn't help distinguish it from a regular Fomorian. Doing slashing damage instead of bludgeoning isn't that memorable a difference.
Cleon
Legend
Incidentally, why does its Falchion do 4d6 damage?
As a Huge monster a Fomorian Giant would normally do triple damage with an artificial melee weapon, but you can't get 4d6 by multiplying threefold. It's possible with a Large 2d6 weapon (e.g. an Ogre with a Greatsword) or a Colossal 1d6 weapon (e.g. a Titan with a Shortsword).
Shouldn't the Falchion's base damage be 3d8 instead? It's pretty much the same average DPR but hews to the monster precedents better.
As a Huge monster a Fomorian Giant would normally do triple damage with an artificial melee weapon, but you can't get 4d6 by multiplying threefold. It's possible with a Large 2d6 weapon (e.g. an Ogre with a Greatsword) or a Colossal 1d6 weapon (e.g. a Titan with a Shortsword).
Shouldn't the Falchion's base damage be 3d8 instead? It's pretty much the same average DPR but hews to the monster precedents better.
Casimir Liber
Adventurer
ok 3d8 it is then. and 2 attacks/round?
to mix up combat - maybe the weapon butt attack like in polearm master as bonus action. I like oppotunity attack when opponent comes in melee range too.
to mix up combat - maybe the weapon butt attack like in polearm master as bonus action. I like oppotunity attack when opponent comes in melee range too.
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Cleon
Legend
Upon reflection, with two main attacks we want the damage to be a bit higher. On par with the 6d8 of the basic Fomorian's Evil Eye. So let's say its Falchion does 27 (3d12 + 8) slashing damage.
Hmm… how I'd approach this conversion it is mimic the 4E version and have the Evil Eye do different effects for different Fomorians and make them be able to use it more often. The 4E monster can glare with its eye as a minor action, so I'd have the butcher be able to Evil Eye as a Bonus Action with does little or no manage but inflicts some inconvenient condition.
It's also mix up the Curse of the Evil Eye so it does a different effect, like a more intense version of its Bonus Action Evil Eye.
So if the Evil Eye bonus action does, say, 2d10 damage and restrains the target on a failed save, then the Butcher can double whammy a target that failed its Evil Eye save with its Curse that, say, another 6d8 damage and paralysis, with reduced effect on a successful save.
Don't care for the opportunity attacks when an opponent comes within melee range. The original monster is a fairly simply build that's isn't overburdened with actions, possibly because it was meant to be accompanied by a few standard monsters or a bunch of minions and giving it lots of options might make the Encounter hard to run.
Tactically, I'd build it to focus on one opponent at a time and, well, butcher its enemy.
Instead of its Evil Eye curse causing deformity like a standard Fomorian, how about the Butcher causes the same penalties as deformity by chopping up its victim.
I'll write up a rough draft of the above…
Cleon
Legend
So how's this:
Actions
Multiattack. The fomorian butcher attacks twice with its falchion or makes one falchion attack and uses Curse of the Evil Eye once.
Falchion. Melee Weapon Attack: +12 to hit, reach 15 ft., one target. Hit: 27 (3d12 + 8) slashing damage.
Curse of the Evil Eye. The fomorian butcher stares at a creature it can see within 60 feet of it that is restrained by its Evil Eye. The creature must succeed on a DC 15 Charisma saving throw or take 27 (6d8) psychic damage and be paralyzed for 1 minute. If the creature's saving throw is successful, it takes half damage and is not paralyzed. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success. The effect also ends if the fomorian butcher uses Curse of the Evil Eye against a different target.
Fomorian Butchery (Recharges 4-6). The fomorian butcher makes two falchion attacks against a living creature that is prone, restrained or paralyzed. If it hits with one or more of these attacks, the target must succeed on a DC 20 Constitution saving throw or take an additional 26 (4d12) damage and be cursed with magical mutilations. While mutilated, the creature has its speed halved and has disadvantage on ability checks, saving throws, and attacks based on Strength or Dexterity.
The mutilated creature can repeat the saving throw whenever it finishes a long rest at full hit points, ending the effect on a success.
[Note: I made the additional damage typeless so the fomorian can butcher creatures immune to nonmagical slashing damage. Would consider making it 4d12 slashing, force or necrotic damage.]
Bonus Actions
Evil Eye. The fomorian butcher magically glares at a creature it can see within 60 feet of it. The creature must succeed on a DC 15 Charisma saving throw or take 11 (2d10) psychic damage and be restrained for 1 minute. If the creature's saving throw is successful, it takes half damage and is not restrained. The target can repeat the saving throw at the end of each of its turns, ending the effect on itself on a success, and it automatically succeeds on its saving throw if the butcher uses Evil Eye against a different target. The effect also ends if the fomorian butcher uses Curse of the Evil Eye.
