D&D 5E 5e, Heal Thyself! Is Healing Too Weak in D&D?

See, on this I agree with many other posters, it's purely technical and does not make sense. I salute your creativity in explaining effects, but it still makes no sense whatsoever if you consider that the PCs are heroes of the highest caliber and not your average peasant thrown in to "Night of the Living Dead" and that these are only minions, not even the main adversary of secondary fights.



It's not even grappling you, it's just standing there and actually attacking someone else, and it's still doing damage to you ?



See, while I completely agree with the first part of your paragraph up to "awesome layer of tactical overhead", I would insist on the "not only easy to map onto the fiction" pursuing that into "actually impossible to map" and therefore for me while it makes perfect sense in the tactical mini-game of 4e combat, it makes no sense in the overall type of play that we like at our tables. But YCMV and to each his own.
For the bolded part...
Spirit Guardians do the same. The cleric is not even attacking, taking the dodge action and guess what? It is 15 feet radius of radiant (or necrotic) damage. And we got that in 5ed. Having a creature with a 5 feet radius effect is not that big of a deal.
 
Last edited:

log in or register to remove this ad

Are there really 'minions' in 5e though? Monsters you can drop with one hit? I ran a game up to 15th level and tried to take advantage of BA for a type of epic "against the horde!" encounter, and...it was a freaking slog. Gnolls have 22 hp, which means most characters don't drop them with one hit, but they still needed 17+ to hit the heroes...it was just loooong. Players begged me not to do that again.

4e minions may not have been easy hits, but they went down when you did.
You should have had the gnolls grapple their opponents. Two at a times. The other attacker would then attack the character with advantage (if they were successful in grappling) and your players would have had a very hard time. Grappling is not level dependant and it would give the "horde" effect quite well. Two grapplers means that the check is made with advantage, giving them a good chance to succeed. With other gnolls striking the grappled character with advantage (as said character is restrained) means that the other gnolls (the non grapplers) are now needing only the equivalent of a "12" to hit. A much higher chance.
 


Yeah, right, on an open plain against one character who could use his AoE and with minions with basically no effect apart from minor hp damage. Now I wonder how he would have fared in any other circumstance in particular with allies in the way and actually effective minions.



Since someone mentioned E2 (which I've played through) I went and had a look, and quite a few of the minions (those I remembered) have very nasty side effect (in particular the rider on their attacks) that would make such a statement very doubtful.



So, training then ? But then why does the 3rd level standard have 46 hit points and the 9th level minions have 1 ? The answer is not because it makes sense in the world, for sure. It's purely a gamist construct.



And then we agree. My point being that if that's what you're looking for, the minions' mechanic is the right one for you. If you look for world-wide consistency, it's not, because it's purely gamist.



Or you could, you know, use the 5e system without minions that makes a difference of play across the tiers why preserving the consistency of the world without relying on such extremely visible gamist strings.



To a PC of let's say intermediate level.



Except that technically they are completely different for no other reason than "the system requires it to work". My point is that 5e has solved this without requiring such technical juggling, that's all.



And then, my point is that in this domain 5e has the better mechanic because it does not require a number change to run smoothly.



Not necessarily, and at least the overall world consistency will be maintained, there will not be a purely technical quantum leap, and for the players it will be much more satisfying to see their progression.



Because they are not the same creature at all. It's pure artificial tailoring to make the system work. So more work for the DM
Nah... all of the above are wrong.
The minions were there exactly for the thing you want. Cinematic scenes in which the heroes slay "minions" to reach the BBEG or the prize or whatever. They were meant as a nuisance for the heroes but also a threat that the heroes could not simply ignore. As such, they were great. As main enemies? not so.
 


Voadam

Legend
4e Martial Power page 7 Tempest Fighter at will gives two attacks, but at one target.

Dual Strike Fighter Attack 1
You lash out quickly and follow up faster, delivering two small wounds.
At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Requirement: You must be wielding two melee weapons.
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC (main weapon and off-hand weapon), two attacks
Hit: 1[W] damage per attack.
Increase damage to 2[W] per attack at 21st level.

4e Forgotten Realms Player's Guide page 27 Swordmage at will attacks one target and damages all adjacent targets.

Greenflame Blade Swordmage Attack 1
Each blow ignites your blade in deadly green fire.
At-Will ✦ Arcane, Fire, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Intelligence vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Intelligence modifier fire damage, and you deal fire damage equal to your Strength modifier to all enemies adjacent to the target.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Intelligence modifier at 21st level.
 
Last edited:

Mannahnin

Scion of Murgen (He/Him)
Greenflame Blade is more akin to Cleave for this purpose- it's just one attack roll but can damage other creatures as well.

Dual Strike appears to be the one I was forgetting. Thanks!
 

Voadam

Legend
Found another couple allowing melee PCs to hit multiple minions in a round.

4e Heroes of the Fallen Lands Page 178 Rogue

Tumbling Trick Using a combination of speed and strength, you push your way through your enemies and use your momentum to make a quick, whirling attack that cuts through one enemy and into another. This attack is best used when your enemies press in on all sides.
Tumbling Trick Rogue Utility
You dodge between your foes, slashing to the right and left with such speed that one attack leads into another.
At-Will ✦ Martial
Move Action Personal
Effect: You shift up to 3 squares. The next time you hit an enemy with a melee basic attack this turn, you also deal damage equal to your Strength modifier to a different enemy, which must be adjacent to you.

4e PH Fighter Cleave

Cleave Fighter Attack 1
You hit one enemy, then cleave into another.
At-Will ✦ Martial, Weapon
Standard Action Melee weapon
Target: One creature
Attack: Strength vs. AC
Hit: 1[W] + Strength modifier damage, and an enemy adjacent to you takes damage equal to your Strength modifier.
Increase damage to 2[W] + Strength modifier at 21st level.
 

Voadam

Legend
Greenflame Blade is more akin to Cleave for this purpose- it's just one attack roll but can damage other creatures as well.

Dual Strike appears to be the one I was forgetting. Thanks!
Isn't this discussion in the context of how many of the horde of minions a PC can take out in a round?
 

pemerton

Legend
@Lyxen - there are many "auras" in 4e that are not energy fields (like flame or necrotic dread) but that represent, in the fiction, biting or scratching or other physical attacks. Swarms have them, for instance.

Likewise, there are examples of forced movement that do not represent literally being pushed or pulled - for instance, the Dreadlock Wight has a forced movement attack that represents a person recoiling in terror from its horrific visage.

Another interesting feature of that horrific visage is that it is a blast - ie operates on only side of the Wight - ie represents it looking at its victims.

It's a feature of 4e that it doesn't needlessly duplicate mechanics - you don't need facing rule when you've got blasts; you can use aura rules for any effect that is triggered periodically in a radius about a character/creature; you can used forced movement to also cover involuntary movement such as fear or being wrongfooted (Footwork Lure); etc.

So, training then ?
Why would level bonuses equate to training? The PCs in my 4e game never trained.

The real development with level is new powers and abilities. The level bonus is just a device for moving PCs through the "story" of D&D. It's not that first, we assign some measure of "training" to a 10th level PC and second we assign some measure of "toughness" to Demogorgon or a Pit Fiend, and then third we notice that the PC can't beat the demon or devil. Rather, first we decide that Demogorgon and Pit Fiends are epic (and upper epic) adversaries, and then we assign numbers to them, and to the PCs, that will reflect this. The fiction is first, the numbers are second.

With minions, we have a fiction: these are the foes that fall before the swords and spells of the heroes! Then we assign numbers that support this fiction: the minions have 1 hp. Another part of the fiction is: these foes are not unthreatening, or just ignorable. So we assign numbers that support that too: the minions have mechanically meaningful attack bonuses and defences and damage.

The fiction is first, and the numbers support that.

It's not the only viable method of RPG design - it closely resembles (for instance) Robin Laws's brilliant HeroQuest revised, and is also quite close to Marvel Heroic RP/Cortex+ Heroic; but obviously is very different from a classic like Rolemaster, or a contemporary game like Burning Wheel. But there is nothing "inconsistent" about it. The fiction is completely coherent.

why does the 3rd level standard have 46 hit points and the 9th level minions have 1 ? The answer is not because it makes sense in the world, for sure. It's purely a gamist construct.

<snip>

If you look for world-wide consistency, it's not, because it's purely gamist.

<snip>

they are not the same creature at all. It's pure artificial tailoring to make the system work. So more work for the DM
Hit points aren't part of the imagined world, so it makes no sense to say that having X or Y hp does or doesn't make sense in the world. Talking about "world-wide consistency" of hp makes no sense. In the fiction, there are people, and orcs, and devils, and demons, but there are no hit points. There are fights, and some are tough, and some are not; there are people who endure many rounds of back-and-forth with their opponents, and there are those who have the misfortune to fall to a single blow. (Like the were-hyenas who fall to single blows from Conan in REH's story Queen of the Black Coast, or the Uruk-Hai who fall to single blows in JRRT's battle of Helm's Deep.)

In the fiction, there are no attack rolls or defence numbers or tracking of hp tallies. Those are all things that happen in the real world, at the table, as part of the process of finding out what happens next in the fiction. So to say that "they are not the same creature" because there are two different stat blocks with different numbers in them is incoherent. In the fiction there are no numbers.

4e is fiction first, numbers second. The numbers - both the overall framework of level bonuses, hit points and damage per level, etc; and the particular numbers assigned to a particular creature or character - are all in service of the fiction.

And the following fiction makes complete sense: for a relatively inexperienced hero, just learning to make their way in the world, fighting this creature is tough; for a hero how is, or is almost, a paragon, this creature will fall before their determined attacks like wheat to the reaping scythe.

To a PC of let's say intermediate level.
If I am a 4e GM building an encounter for a PC of a given level, I decide whether I think some of the foes are going to fall like wheat before the scythe - in which case I stat them as minions - or whether they are going to put up a determined fight - in which case I stat them as a standard or an elite.

I make this decision based on my conception of the shared fiction - so eg for 6th level PCs ogre minions make no sense; but when I ran my version of G2 for mid-epic PCs, frost giant minions abounded - and also based on my intentions around pacing.

If the stat block I need for my purposes exists in the published books then I use it; if it doesn't then I make it up, relying on the excellent advice to GMs found in the DMG which makes the relationship between level and numbers quite transparent.

There's no such thing as an "objective" orc or an "objective" difficulty for a PC of intermediate level. There's a decision about what the fiction will be.

My point is that 5e has solved this without requiring such technical juggling, that's all.

<snip>

the players it will be much more satisfying to see their progression.
The second remark here makes no sense to me. In 5e the reason a 10th level fighter can more easily defeat a goblin than a 1st level fighter is because of numerical changes on the PC sheet. That is no more or less artificial than the GM making numerical changes on their monster stat block.

In my 4e game, what generated the sense of progression was not fiddling around with numbers - that creates change, which can be interesting, but not progression. The progression took place in the fiction. At low levels the PCs fought individual hobgoblins. At mid-paragon they fought hobgoblin phalanxes (in mechanical terms, swarms of hobgoblins) and fought individual demons. At mid-epic they fought swarms of demons. At high epic they fought individual gods and demon lords.

As far as 5e is concerned, it may have solved a problem for you. There are many reasons I don't play 5e, but one of them is that I think it doesn't do a particularly good job of producing fiction that, for me, is paradigmatic of D&D - starting off with kobolds and ending with Demogorgon. Whereas that is something that 4e D&D achieved effortlessly.
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top