D&D 5E 5e, Heal Thyself! Is Healing Too Weak in D&D?

[Undrave]

To my recollection the only Martial at-will that gave multiple attacks was the Ranger's Twin Strike (though Cleave does allow damaging a second, adjacent, foe if you hit the first). Casters did get some burst and blast at-wills.

For fighty-types, blasts and bursts were generally Encounter or Daily powers, in part because the designers were trying to avoid them having to make multiple attack rolls every round.

Martial Power later added a two-weapon specialist Fighter and they had their own versions of Twin Strike.

 

[Lyxen]

I might. Depending on the spell. There is a continuum of how difficult it is to come up with a narrative explanation and how much work you need to put in to do so.

On that, I completely agree, it's not black and white, we all have different ideas of what constitutes suspension of disbelief and what is a satisfying explanation (or if we even need one, actually).

Selective mechanics about damaging enemies only are a bit more on the less obvious end of the spectrum than a 1 hp high level minion for me.

It depends. Going back to Spirit Guardians, these are spirits, so it's not silly to have the cleric tell them to spare specifically some creatures when they appear, for example. It's a bit more difficult to understand for a fountain of flame (And don't get me started on the notion of "enemy", how does a spell - especially one like this - understand what an enemy is ?).

 

[James Gasik]

And that types most of these effects as necrotic, which is not the case. I would not have any problem with a necrotic aura, something visible that the players can work with and around. Although, honestly, I would associate it to other creatures than Ghouls, wraiths, for example.



Well, Spirit Guardians does this in 5e, but it's correctly described. The description, the narrative comes first, then the effect which explains what the cool visual effect does. Here, as is often the case in 4e, it's technically interesting, but this is clearly what came first, and there was not even a strapped on narrative, just a name that does not make real sense.

And for minions, there is not even a narrative, they are just there technically so that the players can kill them quickly.

Or more importantly, to give the real enemies time to do their thing while the party is stuck dealing with the minions. Some enemies, like solos, despite being designed to deal with parties, really needed a screen of minions to do their business.

Granted, all that got thrown out the window when beguiling strands was created in Essentials (sure, there was thunderwave, but this spell was a close blast 5 that did Int psychic damage, usable at will, lol).

OTOH, my friend Tim had a personal favorite mechanic that drew my ire every single time. Exploding minions; minions that either did damage to anyone near them when they died, and/or left behind a damage zone or hindering terrain (like a pool of festering acid)!

Anyways, "lose 5 hit points" is far from the most egregious effect I ever saw on a minion, so maybe I'm jaded, lol.

 

[James Gasik]

On that, I completely agree, it's not black and white, we all have different ideas of what constitutes suspension of disbelief and what is a satisfying explanation (or if we even need one, actually).



It depends. Going back to Spirit Guardians, these are spirits, so it's not silly to have the cleric tell them to spare specifically some creatures when they appear, for example. It's a bit more difficult to understand for a fountain of flame (And don't get me started on the notion of "enemy", how does a spell - especially one like this - understand what an enemy is ?).

Yeah, "enemy" spells are a conceit. But personally, I rather liked the idea of "friendly fire" after 15 years of "accidentally" being blasted by the spells of my so-called allies.

 

[Undrave]

So it was once over all the years of gaming ?

I didn't DM that often in 4e and my schedule was hectic back then. It's also in part of my life that's very fuzzy, probably due to depression messing with my memory, so I genuinely can't tell. Sorry for not having a detailed log book of every game I ever played.

And that's the problem, it was just technical. If you try to instantiate it narratively, it's a failure every time as it ends up breaking suspension of disbelief.

I mean, I don't know all the damn monsters by heart. There's probably a block of lore associated with those creatures that explains it, who knows? You picked a random, high level, creature and zeroed in on a specific effect and I don't know the rest of the creature or its lore and act like my improvised lore is somehow canon? I don't have my 4e monster books available to me right now.

And these more highly trained creatures with high defenses just give up that easily whereas much less trained creatures have way more training power ? And it's the same creature ? The more you try to explain it, the more bizarre it is.

Not every soldier in an army has the same amount of courage. A lot of bullies crumble the moment someone fights back. Heck, every Orc having the exact same amount of hit points is just as immersion breaking as some being way easier to end than others. They're not copy pasted machines, they're individual creatures.

 

[James Gasik]

Or all Orcs having the same weapons, the same tactics, the same ability scores...

 

[Lyxen]

I didn't DM that often in 4e and my schedule was hectic back then. It's also in part of my life that's very fuzzy, probably due to depression messing with my memory, so I genuinely can't tell. Sorry for not having a detailed log book of every game I ever played.

I did not need that level of detail, but just the fact that it was a rare occurence.

I mean, I don't know all the damn monsters by heart. There's probably a block of lore associated with those creatures that explains it, who knows?

There is not: "The orc warrior charges into battle, cutting down its enemies with its battleaxe." And that's it. Why is that a minion (and not the orc raider, who has "The orc raider hurls handaxes until it runs out of axes or until its enemies close to melee, at which point it draws its greataxe"), still a mystery to me...

You picked a random, high level, creature and zeroed in on a specific effect and I don't know the rest of the creature or its lore and act like my improvised lore is somehow canon? I don't have my 4e monster books available to me right now.

There is no such thing as "lore" here. Here is everything that is said on them: "Any living creature that enters this chamber and does not make a point of holding its breath breathes in the blood droplets and automatically catches a disease called ghoul rot. Treat it as the disease slimy doom (see page 50 of the Dungeon Master's Guide), but increase all DCs by 3; also, instead of turning into infectious slime when the disease runs its course, the victim becomes an abyssal ghoul."

How does this create an aura of "unending hunger" (whatever that is) is still a mystery to me.

Not every soldier in an army has the same amount of courage. A lot of bullies crumble the moment someone fights back. Heck, every Orc having the exact same amount of hit points is just as immersion breaking as some being way easier to end than others. They're not copy pasted machines, they're individual creatures.

Which is why HPs for creatures are rolled, by my VTT or by hand when relevant. Heck, my VTT even randomly creates nicknames for my orcs, and one can be a bully and the other a coward, which is great for roleplaying them in combat.

 

[Mannahnin]

Martial Power later added a two-weapon specialist Fighter and they had their own versions of Twin Strike.

I remember that book; my brother played one. I'm still pretty certain that it didn't have an at-will power to attack with both weapons.

 

[James Gasik]

Which is why HPs for creatures are rolled, by my VTT or by hand when relevant. Heck, my VTT even randomly creates nicknames for my orcs, and one can be a bully and the other a coward, which is great for roleplaying them in combat.

And that's great, if you have the time and inclination to do that. But you could do that in any system, really. I don't think any version of D&D has really lent itself well to this other than 3e, and very few people liked having to modify and equip their random mooks knowing they wouldn't survive more than 12 seconds of combat if they were lucky.

 

[James Gasik]

I remember that book; my brother played one. I'm still pretty certain that it didn't have an at-will power to attack with both weapons.

I don't think it did, because I played one, and took the most ridiculous Paragon Path in the world to go with it: the Snapping Tetsudo.