D&D 5E 5e most conservative edition yet? (In terms of new settings)

[Hussar]

No it didn't. It was designed entirely in-house.

It was Hickman and Weiss' home game that they pitched to TSR. What they played eventually became the novels and then the modules.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

It was Hickman and Weiss' home game that they pitched to TSR. What they played eventually became the novels and then the modules.

I'm sorry, that's just not true. Firstly, there was no "Weis and Hickman" home game. Weis was a book editor when she joined TSR. She did not play D&D. Hickman and his wife were hired as game designers.

She was paired with Hickman to help him bring project "Overlord" to life. It wasn't even called Dragonlance then. It was based on an idea Hickman had while driving himself and his wife cross-country to begin work at TSR. (Note, he is having the idea as he's going to start work - there is no existing "home game")

Harold Johnson was the early driving force, pairing Hickman up with Jeff Grubb, Doug Niles, and artists like Larry Elmore.

Look at the authors of the first module: Tracy Hickman, Harold Johnson, Douglas Niles, Carl Smith, Michael Williams.

See Margaret Weis' name there?

The success of the novels later overshadowed the module but right from the start, Dragonlance was an in-house production created by many different designers. They hadn't even designed to ban halflings or orcs from the world before they started playtesting the modules. The outlines were given to Weis to find an author, but when they couldn't find a satisfactory one, she and Hickman decided to write it themselves.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

You might want to reconsider those dates. TSR was out of reserves in 1996, purchased by WotC in 1997. And the proliferation of setting lines was only getting in earnest in 1990 with Ravenloft, 1991 with Dark Sun, 1992 Al-Qadim, 1994 Planescape and Council of Wyrms, and 1995 Birthright. Moreover, Magic didn't hit the market until late 1993 and fadded up in 1994.

So I don't really know where the 1992 to 1998 dates could come from.

I think 1993 was probably when things were starting to turn for TSR. 1994-1995 was when they started to can some settings. 1996-1997 they went bust.

 

[Aldarc]

It was based on an idea Hickman had while driving himself and his wife cross-country to begin work at TSR. (Note, he is having the idea as he's going to start work - there is no existing "home game")

Regardless of whether it was a home game or not, I'm not sure how this "note" precludes this from it being a home game.

 

[billd91]

Regardless of whether it was a home game or not, I'm not sure how this "note" precludes this from it being a home game.

Technically, it doesn't. But the coincidence of the idea being created during their drive to TSR and pretty obviously pitching it to TSR sometime throughout the next year kind of suggests it was less a prior home game that went big as much as it was an idea specifically intended for them to pitch and develop at TSR and maybe also play at home at the same time.

 

[Parmandur]

I mean, we're talking like 1992 vs 1998 so six years, yeah that's a difference. Culturally and in terms of what RPGs were being played it was huge, because that's "before the world wide web" to "huge numbers of people have the internet", and RPGers were particularly likely to.

And I don't think a single other person here has admitted that it was an extremely difficult time in the RPG industry during the 1990s. Everyone wants to pretend TSR suffered solely because of incompetence, because its a much neater, cleaner story, and features villains and has WotC as lovely bunch of saviours.

But that's not the whole story. TSR were an messy and often-incompetent company, for sure, but the double-blow of the rise of other RPGs which captured the zeitgeist of the 1990s and the "youth" of that era (such as myself), and the rise of Magic: The Gathering, which both impinged on RPG profits, and caused RPG companies to think that they had to find an equivalent of it (WW did this by licensing VtM stuff to WotC for Jyhad/VTES, god knows how much money they'd have made if they'd figured out how to do it themselves, it was pretty successful, unlike Dragon Dice), meant they were dealing with a much harder situation, more fluid, more complex, and evolving than people in the '80s or in the '00s.

I mean, all that said, the basic competence of WotC, in so many ways (not least the genius of the OGL) was an incredible contrast, so there is that. I do feel like Dancey hyped the incompetence of TSR a bit - some of what he described in shocked terms was fairly normal for a company in its death throes (warehouses full of unsold stock and so on), and he was always really good at telling a story (probably be a great DM though I dunno if he was into that).

I'm sorry if this all seems a bit needlessly contrarian, btw. I'm not intending to be. I just don't like it when stories get simplified and things which were big at the time (the rise of WW, the challenge of MtG, and so on) get removed from the story.

My understanding of the stunning levels of incompetence come from TSR employees sharing war stories (particularly Stan!), not Dancey (a flawed narrator, indeed...). The factors you mention unmasked the incompetence, and took away the financial crutch holding the company up.

 

[Jester David]

I mean, we're talking like 1992 vs 1998 so six years, yeah that's a difference. Culturally and in terms of what RPGs were being played it was huge, because that's "before the world wide web" to "huge numbers of people have the internet", and RPGers were particularly likely to.

And I don't think a single other person here has admitted that it was an extremely difficult time in the RPG industry during the 1990s. Everyone wants to pretend TSR suffered solely because of incompetence, because its a much neater, cleaner story, and features villains and has WotC as lovely bunch of saviours.

But that's not the whole story. TSR were an messy and often-incompetent company, for sure, but the double-blow of the rise of other RPGs which captured the zeitgeist of the 1990s and the "youth" of that era (such as myself), and the rise of Magic: The Gathering, which both impinged on RPG profits, and caused RPG companies to think that they had to find an equivalent of it (WW did this by licensing VtM stuff to WotC for Jyhad/VTES, god knows how much money they'd have made if they'd figured out how to do it themselves, it was pretty successful, unlike Dragon Dice), meant they were dealing with a much harder situation, more fluid, more complex, and evolving than people in the '80s or in the '00s.

I mean, all that said, the basic competence of WotC, in so many ways (not least the genius of the OGL) was an incredible contrast, so there is that. I do feel like Dancey hyped the incompetence of TSR a bit - some of what he described in shocked terms was fairly normal for a company in its death throes (warehouses full of unsold stock and so on), and he was always really good at telling a story (probably be a great DM though I dunno if he was into that).

I'm sorry if this all seems a bit needlessly contrarian, btw. I'm not intending to be. I just don't like it when stories get simplified and things which were big at the time (the rise of WW, the challenge of MtG, and so on) get removed from the story.

TSR was very successful. They had THE best selling RPG game, which was a license to print money. A constant revenue stream. The continued sales of the core rulebooks and key accessories sustained the company despite bad decision after bad decision.
It took many years, but eventually the money they were losing finally overtook the money they were making from D&D.

There's so many stories from employees at the time. Here's podcasts of a few:

Secrets of TSR – PaizoCon 2011 | Know Direction

knowdirectionpodcast.com

PaizoCon 2012 Special 012 – Secrets of TSR | Know Direction

knowdirectionpodcast.com

PaizoCon2013 Special 013 – Secrets of TSR | Know Direction

knowdirectionpodcast.com

PaizoCon 2014 Special 009 – Secrets of TSR | Know Direction

knowdirectionpodcast.com

(I'm fond of the first one because Ed Greenwood is always amusing.)

If you have counter evidence—something by someone who was actually there and not just your personal feelings that TSR was a well run company that ran into problems with competition—I'd love to see it.

 

[QuentinGeorge]

Regardless of whether it was a home game or not, I'm not sure how this "note" precludes this from it being a home game.

His idea what literally "imagine a world where dragons are important". That's not a "home game" (he never played in it). That's an idea he discussed with his wife over a drive across the US. He's having the idea as he's going to take the job. In the car. Unless you call throwing out some ideas as a "home game" I don't see why you're persisting with this idea.

 

[Parmandur]

I'm sorry, that's just not true. Firstly, there was no "Weis and Hickman" home game. Weis was a book editor when she joined TSR. She did not play D&D. Hickman and his wife were hired as game designers.

She was paired with Hickman to help him bring project "Overlord" to life. It wasn't even called Dragonlance then. It was based on an idea Hickman had while driving himself and his wife cross-country to begin work at TSR. (Note, he is having the idea as he's going to start work - there is no existing "home game")

Harold Johnson was the early driving force, pairing Hickman up with Jeff Grubb, Doug Niles, and artists like Larry Elmore.

Look at the authors of the first module: Tracy Hickman, Harold Johnson, Douglas Niles, Carl Smith, Michael Williams.

See Margaret Weis' name there?

The success of the novels later overshadowed the module but right from the start, Dragonlance was an in-house production created by many different designers. They hadn't even designed to ban halflings or orcs from the world before they started playtesting the modules. The outlines were given to Weis to find an author, but when they couldn't find a satisfactory one, she and Hickman decided to write it themselves.

It's actually the first Setting not born out of an organic home game...

 

[QuentinGeorge]

It's actually the first Setting not born out of an organic home game...

That's right, Dragonlance is the first "constructed" D&D setting - a premonition of 2nd edition, which brought on Kara Tur (made in 1st edition, but still constructed), Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Al Qadim, Planescape, Birthright - all designed in house.