D&D 5E 5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part VI: Fighters)


log in or register to remove this ad

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
I guess I don't understand what a Warlord is. (I'm not being snarky, I've never played one and it's not in any of the books I own.) From what I've gathered from the forums here, it has a lot in common with the psion: it's not a "magic user" in the traditional sense but it has magic-adjacent abilities, nobody can agree on what it is supposed to look like, and Wizards of the Coast hasn't gotten it right yet in 5th Edition.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
I guess I don't understand what a Warlord is. From what I've gathered from the forums here, it has a lot in common with the psion: it's not a "magic user" in the traditional sense but it has magic-adjacent abilities, nobody can agree on what it is supposed to look like, and Wizards of the Coast hasn't gotten it right yet in 5th Edition.
A Warlord is a tactical combat leader who is able to inspire and direct allies, doing things like allowing allies to move or attack using their actions and providing buffs through said inspiration.

Its had absolutely zero magic or even remotely magic adjacent abilities. The assertion that is is is the product of very stupid memes and active deception campaigns at them time combined with some people's utter failure to accept that a discrete ability in D&D could be something that is not a spell.

Basically, by the standards by which the warlord was was magic, Second Wind and Sneak Attack are magic. And Action Surge is straight up high level sorcery.

And WotC has not attempted them at all and 5e.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
And WotC has not attempted them at all and 5e.
I wonder why that is...?

I don't know just how the Warlord's features worked, but the concept is solid enough IMO. The Warlord's features would utilize the reactions of those affected, I assume? Some of the BM maneuvers would seem to work, but would need to be developed on a grander scale I would think.
 

I wonder why that is...?
Because it's a 4e class. They avoid using keywords because 4e used those. They try to find ways around saying 'encounter power' because 4e etc.

I don't know just how the Warlord's features worked, but the concept is solid enough IMO. The Warlord's features would utilize the reactions of those affected, I assume? Some of the BM maneuvers would seem to work, but would need to be developed on a grander scale I would think.
Warlord is basically meant to be the non-caster support, but in melee (so Str was a primary stat, with Int and Cha as secondary, because leader). So they can attack + heal an ally, provide temphp, give an AC bonus, give a lot of damage bonuses, provide extra movement, order an ally to attack, just do what some Battlemaster maneuvers are pale copies of...

They were really cool. You could even make a Lazy Warlord who didn't attack themself, just moved everyone else around and gave them actions.
 
Last edited:

CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
Hm. As you describe it, @Vaalingrade, it seems like a lot of what the Warlord does could be handled with the Bardic Inspiration mechanic (reskinned, of course). Maybe add a suite of new Maneuvers (calling them something else to avoid confusion/mixing with the Battle Master.)

But I'm sure it's not that simple, or it would have been done already.
 


DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Warlord is basically meant to be the non-caster support, but in melee (so Str was a primary stat, with Int and Cha as secondary, because leader). So they can attack + heal an ally, provide temphp, give an AC bonus, give a lot of damage bonuses, provide extra movement, order an ally to attack, just do what some Battlemaster maneuvers are pale copies of...
Hmm...

Just so I am clear on this: you wrote they can attack + heal an ally, for example. What was the logic behind this? In 5E terms, I could see maybe granting the ally the temp hp (you also mentioned), but attacking and actual healing--on the same turn? Or do you mean on separate turns?
 

Just so I am clear on this: you wrote they can attack + heal an ally, for example. What was the logic behind this? In 5E terms, I could see maybe granting the ally the temp hp (you also mentioned), but attacking and actual healing--on the same turn? Or do you mean on separate turns?
Basic structure for powers in 4e was make an attack + deal damage + special effect (not all of them, but most). So everything I listed can be a part of their attack action, depending on what attack power they used. Plus, they could've spent their minor action on Inspiring Word to heal someone by shouting at them.

And the last part is what really grinds certain people's 4e-hating gears, despite insisting in other threads that hitpoints aren't physical wounds.
 

Vaalingrade

Legend
Hm. As you describe it, @Vaalingrade, it seems like a lot of what the Warlord does could be handled with the Bardic Inspiration mechanic (reskinned, of course). Maybe add a suite of new Maneuvers (calling them something else to avoid confusion/mixing with the Battle Master.)

But I'm sure it's not that simple, or it would have been done already.

Since there's not a lot of Save Ends effects in 5e, most of the Warlord's buffs don't really translate, was what they did was letting allies roll a new save etc.

The maneuvers deal is where the connections are drawn between the BM and Warlord. However, it's important to understand that the Warlord had at-will and encounter powers and Short Rests were 5 minutes instead of absolute sadness. The Warlord had things like Wolfpack Tactics, which let an ally move when they move at-will, or commander's strike, which let an ally attack in place of them, again at-will.

Basically, a Warlord never just moved and did a basic attack. Pretty much no one did back in the good old days. The idea of only getting to Commander's Strike once an encounter and probably only twice a day is pretty much what makes the idea of playing a BM as a warlord maddening, and the idea that you only get to be the character you made a couple of times a day and only after 3rd level is baked into early 5e design.
 

Yeah, that bears noting. Battlemaster gets to be a Battlemaster on maybe 4 turns at a time. A Warlord could always feel like a commander of men, pointing at a target and two of his fellows getting a free charge action at them, because he said so.

It was a very physical class (many of their moves could leave them open to counter-attacks, because they were putting themselves on the line very literally), yet it also filled the support role well.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
It seems like expectations need to change for a Warlord class to ever appear in 5E. I am sure playing any class in 4E would feel different compared to playing its 5E counter-part!

Basic structure for powers in 4e was make an attack + deal damage + special effect (not all of them, but most). So everything I listed can be a part of their attack action, depending on what attack power they used. Plus, they could've spent their minor action on Inspiring Word to heal someone by shouting at them.

And the last part is what really grinds certain people's 4e-hating gears, despite insisting in other threads that hitpoints aren't physical wounds.
I could see a feature of the Warlord which would (in 5E terms) be something like this:

Inspiring Call. Beginning at Xth level, when you take the attack action and hit a creature with your attack, you can call out an inspiring phrase to allies within 30 feet of you. An ally must be able to hear or see you, and you can choose a number of allies equal to your proficiency bonus. A chosen ally can use its reaction to expend a Hit Die and recover hit points equal to the roll of the Hit Die plus their choice of either their Constitution modifier or your Charisma modifier. You can only use this feature once on your turn.

Is that at all in the right direction???
 


CleverNickName

Limit Break Dancing
It seems like expectations need to change for a Warlord class to ever appear in 5E. I am sure playing any class in 4E would feel different compared to playing its 5E counter-part!
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. If folks want a Warlord that plays the way it did back in 4E, it would require combat to work the way it did in 4E. So of course that's gonna be a ton of work for just one character class, and all attempts to do so are going to miss the mark.
 

If you were to bastardize a poor man's Warlord from existing 5e bits, you would take the Bard, and replace their spellcasting with Battlemaster maneuvers.
I really wish that 5e didn't tie the bard to being a primary spellcaster so heavily. It really limits the design space you have to work with

I'd have loved to see a spell-less bard with double the Bardic Inspiration uses, and relatively feature-heavy subclasses that allow a broader variety of non-magical charisma-based character concepts. Perhaps some subclasses might have partial spellcasting, there might be warlord implementations that get Extra Attack and better weapon/armour proficiencies, or some which are more skill-based. And there might be a list of additional uses for Bardic Inspiration that would let you customise further, a bit like warlock invocations or artificer infusions do. So you could make a manipulative aristocrat, or a warlord, or a classic jack-of-all-trades that dabbles in magic, or a trader.

It's nuts right now that we have three classes that use Cha as a primary attribute, and ALL of them are spellcasters. The bard should be a people person first, and a spellcaster second.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
Sure, in the sense that it's a support move... It's just that while healing was a thing they did, it wasn't their Thing. They had much more stuff that'd be like 'after you hit an opponent, pull 2 allies next to the opponent and give them advantage against it. Also, the target cannot Disengage, because screw them.'
Yeah, I meant that to mirror your description for the support move.

A more "combat" feature might be something like this:

Wolfpack Call. Beginning at Xth level, when you take the attack action and hit a creature with an attack, you can choose an ally within 10 feet of the creature. The ally can use its reaction to move next to the creature. Before the end of the ally's next turn, it gains advantage on the next attack made against the creature. You can only use this feature once on your turn.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
I really wish that 5e didn't tie the bard to being a primary spellcaster so heavily. It really limits the design space you have to work with

I'd have loved to see a spell-less bard with double the Bardic Inspiration uses, and relatively feature heavy subclasses that allow a broader variety of non-magical charisma-based character concepts. Perhaps some subclasses might have partial spellcasting, there might be warlord implementations that get Extra Attack and better weapon/armour proficiencies, or some which are more skill-based. And there might be a list of additional uses for Bardic Inspiration that would let you customise further, a bit like warlock invocations or artificer infusions do. So you could make a manipulative aristocrat, or a warlord, or a classic jack-of-all-trades that dabbles in magic, or a trader.

It's nuts right now that we have three classes that use Cha as a primary attribute, and ALL of them are spellcasters. The bard should be a people person first, and a spellcaster second.
Yep. We made Bards half-casters because they are already too good otherwise. Also, we made Sorcerers CON-based casters.
 

If folks want a Warlord that plays the way it did back in 4E, it would require combat to work the way it did in 4E. So of course that's gonna be a ton of work for just one character class, and all attempts to do so are going to miss the mark.
I don't think it's difficult to get the same vibe. It's just important to acknowledge that Fighter + Battlemaster isn't in the right ballpark.

You could well create a class whose thing is not getting Extra Attacks, but (mostly) attack-triggered moves that affect their allies. Some of which are at-will, so you get to feel like a commander every turn, just like casters get their cantrips so they can feel like a caster even when they're not expending bigger resources.

And WotC is even okay with using 'when you roll initiative, refresh this resource'... just don't call it an encounter power.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
And WotC is even okay with using 'when you roll initiative, refresh this resource'... just don't call it an encounter power.
IIRC though, all of those are capstone or tier 4 features?

Otherwise, I like recharge mechanics. Which if you really have any significant time between encounters, auto-recharges them anyway...
 


The Weather Outside Is Frightful!

An Advertisement

Advertisement4

Top