D&D General 5e System Redesign through New Classes and Setting. A Thought Experiment.

[Zardnaar]

is that Nimble 5e? Anime 5e (haven’t heard of that…)?


I am glad DS! is trying to tackle them, WotC just entirely dropped the ball with 2024 as far as I am concerned


curious what he will come up with, by and large I like what he is saying

Draw Steel no one cars about. I dont think it broke top 20 games at gen con.

Its going to be about as relevant as 13 thAge is in a couple of years. Translation good luck finding a game.

Other games dont have to follow D&Ds sacred cows. Other games aren't going to sell either and good luck finding players let alone a DM/GM.

 

[mamba]

Draw Steel no one cars about. I dont think it broke top 20 games at gen con.

I don’t really care what it did at gencon, for one that might have been too early for it, for another whether I like a game or not is not tied to how well it does there

Its going to be about as relevant as 13 thAge is in a couple of years. Translation good luck finding a game.

Other games dont have to follow D&Ds sacred cows. Other games aren't going to sell either and good luck finding players let alone a DM/GM.

yeah, the only game that sells is 5e, everyone else is doomed to fail, pretty bleak picture you are painting there

I am fine with them not following sacred cows, there is no progress if you never can change anything. As to not finding players, guess we will see how things pan out a few years from now, but I am not interested in 2024 5e, it is a disappointment to me. I’d rather look at some TTRPGs that tried new things than stick with the ‘same old stuff’ in new covers

 

[Zardnaar]

I don’t really care what it did at gencon, for one that might have been too early for it, for another whether I like a game or not is not tied to how well it does there


yeah, the only game that sells is 5e, everyone else is doomed to fail, pretty bleak picture you are painting there

I am fine with them not following sacred cows, there is no progress if you never can change anything. As to not finding players, guess we will see how things pan out a few years from now, but I am not interested in 2024 5e, it is a disappointment to me. I’d rather look at some TTRPGs that tried new things than stick with the ‘same old stuff’ in new covers

Well i started playing D&D 1993. Been hearing how bad it is since 1996.

Probably because that's when I visited a game store. Those sacred cows are important. And now entire generations are trained on their sacred cows.

 

[mamba]

Well i started playing D&D 1993. Been hearing how bad it is since 1996.

started in 1984 or so, but did not play it consistently and dropped out entirely sometime before 3e, only found my way back during 5e

Probably because that's when I visited a game store. Those sacred cows are important. And now entire generations are trained on their sacred cows.

not sure how important they really are, or how many of the new players even see them as such

Didn’t care for them in the 80s, don’t care for them now. They are part of the game, but nothing I am beholden to. I doubt everyone else is (although no doubt some are). 5e doesn’t have its position in the market because everyone yearns for its sacred cows

 

[Zardnaar]

started in 1984 or so, but did not play it consistently and dropped out entirely sometime before 3e, only found my way back during 5e


not sure how important they really are, or how many of the new players even see them as such

Didn’t care for them in the 80s, don’t care for them now. They are part of the game, but nothing I am beholden to. I doubt everyone else is (although no doubt some are)

That's you. We gave a very recent example of sacred cows being slaughtered.

I have said IDK if a drastically over hauled D&D nuking the newer players preferred playstyle will go. WotC wont do it anyway if 5.5 tanks earliest anything comes out is 2027 revised 5E 2.0, 2028 6E assuming they rush it. Hmn its late 2026 add a year so 2928/29 for anything new.

 

[mamba]

That's you. We gave a very recent example of sacred cows being slaughtered.

what example?

I have said IDK if a drastically over hauled D&D nuking the newer players preferred playstyle will go.

and I am not sure they have a preferred playstyle, that kinda requires being aware of more than one

WotC wont do it anyway if 5.5 tanks earliest anything comes out is 2027 revised 5E 2.0, 2028 6E assuming they rush it. Hmn its late 2026 add a year so 2928/29 for anything new.

2027 is too early, even if 5.5 were tanking, and if it did, I’d hope WotC would be smart enough to not push out another minor tweak after the last one sank so fast.

I doubt we will see anything new before 2030, even if 2024 were tanking. At this point I do not really care either way, let’s see what they come up with first, before pinning our hopes on it. If 2024 is anything to go by, it will be another letdown and I will not like D&D 2030 either.

 

[Zardnaar]

what example?


and I am not sure they have a preferred playstyle, that kinda requires being aware of more than one


2027 is too early, even if 5.5 were tanking, and if it did, I’d hope WotC would be smart enough to not push out another minor tweak after the last one sank so fast.

I doubt we will see anything new before 2030, even if 2024 were tanking. At this point I do not really care either way, let’s see what they come up with first, before pinning our hopes on it. If 2024 is anything to go by, it will be another letdown and I will not like D&D 2030 either.

Yeah i forgot how late in 2025. Its 2028 earliest if tgdy rushed a revision out the door.

 

[tetrasodium]

is that Nimble 5e? Anime 5e (haven’t heard of that…)?

No, anime5e comes from the same guy/company (?) as besm. Although the mechanical rules are largely unchanged after character creation∆ it gives a pretty drastic overhaul of charge by converting everything to a point but format and adding a bunch of anime type things you could buy with those points. Pointbuy takes a lot more player buyin on not actively destroying the game on spreadsheet builds but it's kinda neat in the variety it brings

∆ there are a few exceptions but the changes aren't coming to mind

I am glad DS! is trying to tackle them,

It does a great job of that with how respites & victories. I've only run it about 5 times now but players very much avoid even attempting the 5mwd rest loop & the victories it converts really allows them to do a lot of cool stuff while they hold off.

Draw Steel no one cars about. I dont think it broke top 20 games at gen con.

They didn't go to gencon, I want to say that the reasons were discussed by Coleville in one of his videos. IIRC it boiled down to the ruleset being not quite complete &at the time plus a couple other things not coming to mind.

Its going to be about as relevant as 13 thAge is in a couple of years. Translation good luck finding a game.


Other games dont have to follow D&Ds sacred cows. Other games aren't going to sell either and good luck finding players let alone a DM/GM.

I've run fate icons levelup dcc draw steel & others not coming to mind at a local flgs without the slightest bit of trouble finding players by getting them to post about it on their facebook page & showing up

 

[FrogReaver]

I lost all interest at the big bold 4e got it right.

4e wasn’t actually balanced. Twin Strike and Frost cheese anyone? That said most powers were balanced with each other because they were all some variation of 2W damage + small effect. The only mechanically interesting ones did other stuff and were few and far between. Especially in base PHB. This gave a feel of balance to most players that didn’t mix max heavily, some often called the kind of balance achieved from this sameyness.

That said, I agree that a whole set of unique classes per setting is a great idea. Im for more classes in general so thats an easy sell for me.

Im also for lots of dials around what is allowed by skill checks in a given setting and the difficulty of those tasks being adjustable.

Similar dials should also be around rest and recovery.

Then there needs to be well considered guidelines for how to appropriately increase encounter difficulty. For example adding more enemies to an aoe control heavy party probably changes little. Facing an individual enemy twice as strong probably matters little if the party has multiple single target control abilities (unless the enemy has across the board strong resistances to those effects). Etc.

 

[Cergorach]

I think part of the problem is D&D's resource management is locked to "dungeon" style of play. The PCs are far away from home, in hostile territory, facing multiple hostile encounters in a short period. Resource management breaks down when the PCs aren't in hostile territory (such as urban adventures), have access to renewable supplies (like shops and inns), and aren't supposed to face multiple encounters but instead a few larger set piece adventures. Tack on variable time pressure (to allow for short/long rests) and PCs face every encounter with nova potential and limited risk.

For me, the question was never one of dropping my players in Undermountain and seeing if they can manage resources. The issue comes when I put them in Waterdeep and they can face every group of thugs, treacherous nobles, or murderous cult with full power and then easily use the resources of the city to heal and restock. That's where D&D resource management fails.

Isn't Waterdeep (or any big city) not another maze? And if they kicked the hornets nest, wouldn't getting to other locations not also provide hurdles when the enemy also knows the city well or better then the party? Facing another group of thugs suddenly becomes a LOT more dangerous when they alpha-striked the first group and the next group is between them and their supplier of healing potions... I think it's about educating players in a different play style, for if you let this happen continuously without consequence, nothing will ever change and no matter how you redesign it, they will continue to behave this way.

And it's not all that strange if you think about it. If I go out biking, I can go full speed when I know I don't have anything important after biking, I can get home sweaty and tired, ready for some rest and relaxation. But if I know I have work, or a dinner, I'm not going to go nuts biking. When the players know that after encounter #1 they can go home for some rest and relaxation, they'll go all out on the first encounter. If they are not so sure or know they can't, they might be more frugal with their resources.

And if they're resting their long rest, they can get assaulted by even more thugs or even hired assassins...

To be honest, it's not that the system 'fails' outside of the dungeon, it's the DM that fails. You either do one encounter by design in an urban, woodland, etc. setting or you do multiple, and each choice is on the DM. And if you only do one encounter, that's not a problem imho, due to the alpha-strike nature of the characters, they can handle a pretty big encounter, just be sure you know what that is exactly before you start throwing heavy artillery in their direction. But you don't have too stick with only one encounter outside of the dungeon...

Think of it as an action movie: In this scene the heroes just used all their ammo and handgrenades to take out the gangmember hideout, but they called for reinforcements, which show up and chase the heroes.