D&D 5E 5e's new gender policy - is it attracting new players?

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Lanliss

Explorer
It could be a woman who identifies as a male, and thus is only a wife as far as the literal term, or it could be a male who identifies as female, and is called wife because that is what "she" prefers. It could be argued either way really.

Made a quick EDIT because I had the quote in the wrong spot.
 
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Sacrosanct

Legend
You know SuperZero, this is a pretty hot topic to begin with, and if you're going to insist on relying on strawmen arguments to argue with people, then there's no sense in me continuing because clearly you have no desire to have an honest conversation.
 

Dausuul

Legend
But when I play an adventure, I only want things that are pertinent to that adventure to be taking up page space.
Romantic relationships are a big motivating factor for many NPCs, which makes them highly pertinent. And English being what it is, the writers would have to go way out of their way to avoid indicating NPC gender. Put those together, and the adventure has to indicate some of the sexual preferences of at least some NPCs.

If every romantic relationship is between one NPC referred to as "he" and another referred to as "she," that's a thing. If some of them are between "he" and "he," or "she" and "she," that's another thing. Other than excluding romantic motivations entirely, there is no neutral option.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
I apologise if this post comes off as lecturing, gender and sexuality are my main focus as a historian so I would just like to correct some misunderstandings in the thread regarding their place in history.

The idea that including LGBT characters in a medieval fantasy setting would be anachronistic is wrong, I am afraid. Unlike today, in the ancient and medieval worlds it was trans and gender-nonconforming individuals who were more visible and respected than gay people. Someone mentioned the hijra of India, other examples include eunuchs in many Mediterranean, Near Eastern and Asian civilisations, sworn virgins in the Balkans, the Vestal Virgins of Rome, and many more. These always existed in a specific religious or political context, such as the eunuch servants of the Byzantine court who were favoured because their inability to create families of their own meant they were seen as wholly loyal to their employers. I'm not trying to say that a trans peasant would have been accepted, but there were specific roles in many cultures which required or were reserved for people outside of the traditional gender binary, even in the most hyper-masculine societies.

Indeed, if you think that including a trans character in a medieval European-based fantasy setting is an anachronism, then presumably you would have to ban female characters from being anything besides wives, mothers, prostitutes and maybe priestesses, because women in history who stepped outside of these specific roles were viewed as violating the boundaries of their gender, unless it was in one of the aforementioned sanctioned roles. Historical conceptions of gender were extremely inflexible for both men and women, look no further than the reaction to Joan of Arc for an example of how a woman who involved herself in war would be viewed and treated, even without taking part in actual combat. And since no one has argued for such restrictions on female characters, I can't see how allowing trans characters would be any more anachronistic.

Non-heterosexual people similarly existed throughout history, and not just in Ancient Greece. For specific European examples, there are many kings who had male "favourites", some of whom came to bad ends but by no means all, as well as overtly romantic letters exchanged between monks. Evidence for female same-sex relationships is rather harder to come by due to the bias of having overwhelmingly male sources. Again, your average peasant probably would not have been able to express their sexuality freely, but for the upper ranks of society, specifically male members things were different. Often, as a long as a man did his duty by marrying and siring children, he could get away with taking lovers of either sex.

First post, hopefully I have made sense.

Welcome to the board! Glad you're here and decided to post.
 

SuperZero

First Post
You know SuperZero, this is a pretty hot topic to begin with, and if you're going to insist on relying on strawmen arguments to argue with people, then there's no sense in me continuing because clearly you have no desire to have an honest conversation.

Are you referring to the post in which I broke up your quote to make clear exactly which parts I was responding to since it was a long post? Because that's not a Strawman.
(Meanwhile look at some of what I've gotten asked here.)

But anyway, I think the idea that this is a "hot topic" demonstrates that the blurb in the PHB is a big deal and that kind of inclusion can't be taken for granted.
Why should I need to have an honest conversation about what others can take for granted?
 

D&D and roleplaying in general has always been, at least in my experience, as open and inclusive as it gets. I have not noticed any changes in the types and numbers of new players being attracted to the game due to the gender comments.
 

If every romantic relationship is between one NPC referred to as "he" and another referred to as "she," that's a thing. If some of them are between "he" and "he," or "she" and "she," that's another thing.
There's an implicit issue of sample size here. How many is "every"? In D&D, yes, we do see romantic relationships, but not usually a large number of them. It's not an aspect of life that the game really emphasizes. If we were to sample, say, only five real-world relationships at random, the odds are that all of them would be straight, simply because gays and lesbians are a minority. There's no reason to expect it's any different in D&D. If we see about five relationships per adventure (which seems generous to me), we're probably only going to see a gay couple every four or five adventures. Way different than if we were playing, say, a romantic-comedy-themed game where we see lots and lots of relationships.

And this rough estimate is, of course, assuming that gay couples have the same visibility as straight ones within the cultural context of the adventure. There's no reason why that shouldn't be the case, but there's no reason why it should, either. Cultures vary.
 


MechaPilot

Explorer
Rome and Greece predate the time period of swords and sorcery as we think of it. John Dee, the Black Pullet, and Charlemagne's Paladins all come centuries after the love affair between Hephaestion and Alexander (4th century BC). I get the feeling the relationship with Enkidu and Gilgamesh (~22nd Century BC) was likely similar. The Poet Sappho is another historical figure that turns the notion on it's head. The Tale of Genji, which I mentioned earlier, was written some time around 1020 AD. Mulan evolved as a story between the 12th and 17th centuries, the same time period that Full Plate Armor rose and fell from popularity. Between the 14th and 16th centuries, the Zweihander or Greatswords we have come to love were popular in use.

And don't forget about the pirate Mary Read, who would certainly fit into Spelljammer or age of sail campaign.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
The whole premise seems a little dubious to me, but you are the expert on your own gaming experience.
 

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