D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

[Celtavian]

I don't think that's the argument people are making. I think people (like myself) are making the argument, "I don't want to be forced to buff the other player all the time when I want to do other things." and "A player shouldn't expect that another player will constantly spend their resources on them at the detriment of that other player's fun. If a player wants a build a certain way, it's that players responsibility to make sure that happens themself." And the big one: "If someone feels 'stuck' or will face 'repercussions' if they don't always do what player A wants, then player A has some issues."

I swear, sometimes reading Celtavian's posts, it's almost like he's got Stockholm syndrome or something going on. He keeps using phrases like "I'm stuck doing this for this other player" and "I'll face repercussions if I don't do it" and "I would rather do other things but I have to do this for player A for him/her to be effective all the time", but then instead of blaming the player, he blames the game and us, and says we don't play with "real friends" like he does.

No. That is the argument you were making. You don't want to acknowledge that game circumstances require a fly spell for a martial to engage a dragon effectively in combat. That they have a mobility issue. That concentration creates a situation where a caster must choose to play selfishly leaving the melee martial on the ground doing nothing or play as a team using a fly spell and using one of his many other options to attack that the melee martial doesn't have. You even posted that if he wants to palya melee martial that can fly, he should multilclass basically eliminating a bunch of classic fantasy archetypes from play. You did write that.

I doubt you comprehend my posts. Let's see all the contradictions you've posted in this thread:

1. You don't want to be forced to buff somebody...

Yet

2. You don't like someone being good at everything...which means they might need some help at things they're not good at meaning buffs.

Yet

3. encourage them to multiclass so they can fly and use their melee martial weapon in combat requiring the ability to cast at least a 3rd level spell meaning only making Eldritch Knights or multiclass caster/melee martials

Yet

4. "It's the players responsibility to make sure this happens himself"

while

5. Not being good at everything.

In a game that

6. Doesn't have default magic items as the standard.

Like I said, there was a reason you're on ignore. You don't make much sense. You're all over the place and don't realize how much of what you posted doesn't add up.

Ah. Now talking about Stockholm Syndrome and making an asinine response. Now you're attempting to make it seem like any of what you posted isn't true.

Are you saying the following isn't true?

1. If you set a selfish precedent, other players will reciprocate? Not true? Really? You believe that? You don't respond in kind when you are treated a certain way? Certainly seems like you do.

2. Stuck doing it for another player. Yes. I am stuck. Concentration mechanic is not optional if playing without house rules. If I want a large percentage of my party's damage to be brought to bear on my enemies, then yes, I am stuck casting the fly spell because of the game. Why you don't believe this is true, I don't know. You couldn't prove it in actual battle in the circumstances we were in. You would have wiped your party trying to kill a dragon by yourself why your melee buddy stood on the ground waiting.

3. I would rather have cast bigby's hand or animate objects in some of the fights, but you know, that concentration mechanic got in the way. I could have done hoping that either spell did as much as the melee martial. Likely that wouldn't have been the case.

Blame? Why are you thinking in terms of blame? I stated the factual rules of 5E and how they worked in the combats I was in. The melee martial fighter needed fly to get into combat against the dragon. The concentration mechanic left me stuck casting it on him as well as the paladin. I also will add that if your natural inclination is not to help the melee martial fighter get into combat and you're going call him "selfish" or tell him to play another class as you did in your previous post, you probably aren't playing with friends. You're playing with people you don't mind insulting. Generally people you don't mind insulting aren't friends.

And I believe we're done conversing as I don't believe you have anything to add to the conversation. You are illogical.

 

[Celtavian]

Yes you did. I even requoted them for you yesterday. You said you were "stuck doing it" even though you didn't want to. And that you'd face "repercussions" if you didn't. And there was no way you could just tell them "no". Those are actual arguments you made. That sure sounds like you were presenting yourself as being forced to do something. I mean, I can only go by what words actually mean. Maybe you have some special dictionary I don't have.

You really don't understand the difference between stuck by circumstances and forced by another player demanding it, do you?

You don't understand the social dynamics of friendship where you don't want to create a selfish attitude around the table.

That's all I can surmise from your comments.

 

[Celtavian]

But you see - you are suffering the consequences of his character choice instead (finding your Concentration slot dedicated to him). Every character choice has consequences that someone is going to have to suffer. By helping him not to suffer his, you are suffering them, as well as your own. So no wonder you feel underpowered - you're compensating for other members of your party!

Most of the players I've played with, including me, are happy to suffer those consequences themselves. I don't expect my gnome wild sorcerer to be crazy effective against creatures that are immune - I'm happy to have to think about my strategy a little more and use some under-used actions and some creative terrain usage, etc. It's not maximum effectiveness for me, but being at maximum effectiveness the whole time isn't a prerequisite for a fun night. I'm not going to gripe about how monster immunities are an awful design decision in 5e because I am not very effective sometimes. It's to be expected. I'm happy to suffer the consequence of my action (because that is part of the role I'm playing - he's gonna be useless if he can't be tricksy).

Now, it's fine that you want to suffer the consequences of his character choice (lawd knows I've played helpful healers and the like), but you shouldn't then translate that into an issue with the Concentration mechanic itself - you're using it to make your party melee damage machine into a ranged melee damage machine, and that's hardly a waste of a Concentration slot! The fact that you can't ALSO buff the party within an inch of trackability isn't a flaw in the system, it's pretty much the system working as intended - you're turning up the party's damage potential as your One Ongoing Magical Effect, just as my gnome denies enemies actions as his One Ongoing Magical Effect. Flight isn't a required thing, it's a bonus thing that you GET to do, to enhance your party's damage output.

The central miscommunication seems to be that you are seeing a bottleneck that you are opting into, that is unique to your situation, and expanding that to an issue with the mechanic in general. It should hopefully be pretty clear by now that there's a LOT of tables who don't feel obligated to fly their melee machines, and so don't feel that bottleneck. Also, it'd hopefully be clear that your flying melee machine is a good use of Concentration, because of the enhancements it brings your party damage.

What are you talking about? I said I didn't enjoy it. The concentration mechanic limited my fun by making a buff spell more effective than using my concentration slot for casting spells I want to use.

I'm not opting into it. It was our most effective option. The melee martial is a main group damage dealer. To be able to use a concentration slot on a damage spell I wanted to use would have required me to make up the damage lost because the melee martial couldn't enter combat. I am not capable of doing so with my spell slots.

None of the other stuff you posted applies. You would have done what I had done in the group composition and terrain circumstances afforded to us or you would have died. I've already read your claims of dropping dragons from the sky and the circumstances you play with. None of that applies. This was a dragon in its lair using lair actions and legendary actions with superior mobility and visibility. We did what we had to do to live. My buddy made a melee martial as a prime damage dealer. Getting him into combat is an effective option, but boring due to the concentration mechanic.

This other stuff you're writing doesn't change any of that. Doesn't change the circumstances I was in. Nor does it change how the concentration mechanic works as in you cast "fly", you're locked in. That is all game mechanics that limit character options and choices. That limits my ability to have fun as a caster.

I'm not even sure what you're discussing any longer. None of it applies to my situation. I already know you're game is non-standard and different than we play, so your experience isn't very applicable.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

But you see - you are suffering the consequences of his character choice instead (finding your Concentration slot dedicated to him). Every character choice has consequences that someone is going to have to suffer. By helping him not to suffer his, you are suffering them, as well as your own. So no wonder you feel underpowered - you're compensating for other members of your party!

Most of the players I've played with, including me, are happy to suffer those consequences themselves. I don't expect my gnome wild sorcerer to be crazy effective against creatures that are immune - I'm happy to have to think about my strategy a little more and use some under-used actions and some creative terrain usage, etc. It's not maximum effectiveness for me, but being at maximum effectiveness the whole time isn't a prerequisite for a fun night. I'm not going to gripe about how monster immunities are an awful design decision in 5e because I am not very effective sometimes. It's to be expected. I'm happy to suffer the consequence of my action (because that is part of the role I'm playing - he's gonna be useless if he can't be tricksy).

It's a little bit more complicated than "feeling underpowered" or "forced to buff for fear of social repercussions". Celtavian, at the time, felt that buffing the fighter was a strong tactical choice compared to using his own spells directly (due to legendary resistance, etc.), so casting Fly on the fighter was absolutely an exercise of his own agency enhancing the party, which is clearly not underpowered. But he also felt it was boring to play. More recently he's apparently come around to the view that melee archtypes really are weaker than ranged archtypes in 5E, but he finds that objectionable--and that is where the social pressure might come in, since he says that you shouldn't be "forced" to play ranged strikers nor be forced to turn melee fighters into flying melee fighters with your Concentration slot. My response to that is twofold:

1.) Play the game any way you like it. If you want to modify the concentration rules, do that. If you want to cast Web on the dragon so it falls to the ground, do that. If you want to play a party of all aarakocra, do that. None of that is badwrongfun.

2.) I like the game well enough as it's written, which means I'll just accept the fact that in 5E, ranged combat is stronger than melee combat, and most fighters should be built primarily as archers. While I do build the occasional melee character, that is usually for a specific role (melee tanking) and not for melee DPR, so it doesn't matter much if he plays backup during a ranged combat where melee tanking isn't needed. (More specifically, he has other things to do during a ranged combat with e.g. a dragon, including healing other party members, protecting them with his aura, and shooting Fire Bolts when the dragon comes into range, unless it's a Red Dragon.) In a ranged combat, the equivalent of having a melee tanker is "having 3/4 cover to hide behind", and that doesn't require any PC to cover the role--it just requires finding the right terrain.

3.) If you don't like being sidelined occasionally, see point #1 and change the way you play.

4.) Don't expect to convert other people to the way you play.

 

[Remathilis]

This is the only edition of D&D where buffing the fighter meant you eliminated a 25 to 35% of your spell list, so the fights have to be easier. Older editions built balance knowing you would be stacking buffs and magic items. This edition has to build encounters with the idea that one concentration slot will limit buffing and thus power.

Um... its not the ONLY...

BECMI (Basic) easily falls into this category. This is primarily due to the fact there are few buffs (Clerics get bless, a 2nd level spell, at 4th level; magic-users get their first offensive buff, haste, at 5th), limited magic items (and some restrictions; like magic rings not stacking with magic armor), and math much closer to AD&D than d20 but still managed to work.

Playing a caster in BD&D usually meant you couldn't buff the fighter since there was nothing to buff them with. Sure, you got fly and haste, but that's about it. No prayer, strength, stoneskin, improved invisibility, fire shield, nothing. Instead, clerics often healing, divinations, and a few special attack spells (hold person, striking) while a wizard had utility magic (knock, water breathing, light) and attack spells (fireball, magic missile, etc). Fighters were pretty much on their freaking own.

Yeah, AD&D introduced many the classic buffs, but limited spell slots (no rituals, no cantrips) and some brutal restrictions (AD&D haste aged you a year, and could KILL you if failed your system shock!) meant buffs were still limited, least when I played. Wizards cast stoneskin on themselves since the fighter had 100 hp and the wizard had 40, one thrown rock from a giant turned you into paste. A few fighters got Strength cast on them and yes, we did cast fly on the fighter during a dragon fight, but overall I remember AD&D pretty buffing light.

Its really 3e and on that the idea of stacking, cascading bonuses becomes a thing. Pretty much because everything became a numerical bonus in that game, so a lot of spells became focused on increasing a given number (attack bonus, damage, AC, hp, saves or stats). 5e seems to be moving casters back from "buffing master" back to "blaster and problem solver", which is a good thing IMHO.

 

[Sacrosanct]

And I believe we're done conversing as I don't believe you have anything to add to the conversation. You are illogical.

I doubt that. You've said this a couple times and yet you keep responding. And the only one using logical fallacies here is you. I've already pointed these out more than once. So have others. So I'm not going to do it again.

You really don't understand the difference between stuck by circumstances and forced by another player demanding it, do you?

You don't understand the social dynamics of friendship where you don't want to create a selfish attitude around the table.

That's all I can surmise from your comments.

At this point, looking at your history in this thread, I'm betting that's all you want to surmise, because you keep insisting on attacking arguments you attribute to me that I didn't make. Par for the course at this point I suppose.

Here's a hint. When you say you will face repercussions from a player if you don't do what they want and/or expect, that's not "stuck by circumstances". That has nothing to do with the game. It's 100% all about that person. And then you have the audacity to say that we don't play with real friends like you do, or we don't understand the dynamics of friendship because we don't always do what they want, even if we feel "stuck" and fear "repercussions" as the main motivation for doing so?

Maybe it's just me, but my friends don't threaten me, either through implication or direct behavior. And they don't expect me to cater to them all the time.

 

[Celtavian]

It's a little bit more complicated than "feeling underpowered" or "forced to buff for fear of social repercussions". Celtavian, at the time, felt that buffing the fighter was a strong tactical choice compared to using his own spells directly (due to legendary resistance, etc.), so casting Fly on the fighter was absolutely an exercise of his own agency enhancing the party, which is clearly not underpowered. But he also felt it was boring to play. More recently he's apparently come around to the view that melee archtypes really are weaker than ranged archtypes in 5E, but he finds that objectionable--and that is where the social pressure might come in, since he says that you shouldn't be "forced" to play ranged strikers nor be forced to turn melee fighters into flying melee fighters with your Concentration slot. My response to that is twofold:

1.) Play the game any way you like it. If you want to modify the concentration rules, do that. If you want to cast Web on the dragon so it falls to the ground, do that. If you want to play a party of all aarakocra, do that. None of that is badwrongfun.

2.) I like the game well enough as it's written, which means I'll just accept the fact that in 5E, ranged combat is stronger than melee combat, and most fighters should be built primarily as archers. While I do build the occasional melee character, that is usually for a specific role (melee tanking) and not for melee DPR, so it doesn't matter much if he plays backup during a ranged combat where melee tanking isn't needed. (More specifically, he has other things to do during a ranged combat with e.g. a dragon, including healing other party members, protecting them with his aura, and shooting Fire Bolts when the dragon comes into range, unless it's a Red Dragon.) In a ranged combat, the equivalent of having a melee tanker is "having 3/4 cover to hide behind", and that doesn't require any PC to cover the role--it just requires finding the right terrain.

3.) If you don't like being sidelined occasionally, see point #1 and change the way you play.

4.) Don't expect to convert other people to the way you play.

Nothing to disagree with here. As usual, I'm stating my experience and thinking. Not how others need to do things.

I have come up with a different concentration rule I think will work for my particular group. I really don't want the problem with 3E casters. I really do want melee martials to be viable since so many classic fantasy archetypes are melee martials. The monk really gets screwed by that.

I'm not real sure how you cast web on a dragon, especially in a huge lair with no anchor points. And the dragon can use his Legendary Resistance to ignore them until they collapse and disappear. Dragon had people near dead within a couple of rounds. You really don't have a lot of time against appropriate or higher CR dragons to test strategy. I'd love to run some simulated dragon combats with you in the circumstances we were in and see how you do. I think we run Legendary Resistance differently. I run it where the creature knows the general effect that will happen if it fails its save allowing it to use its Legendary Resistance efficiently. I think you said you make the monster use its Legendary Resistance without knowing the effect. It might change things a bit. Not sure how much given how fast dragons take down hit points, but maybe.

 

[Celtavian]

I doubt that. You've said this a couple times and yet you keep responding. And the only one using logical fallacies here is you. I've already pointed these out more than once. So have others. So I'm not going to do it again.



At this point, looking at your history in this thread, I'm betting that's all you want to surmise, because you keep insisting on attacking arguments you attribute to me that I didn't make. Par for the course at this point I suppose.

Here's a hint. When you say you will face repercussions from a player if you don't do what they want and/or expect, that's not "stuck by circumstances". That has nothing to do with the game. It's 100% all about that person. And then you have the audacity to say that we don't play with real friends like you do, or we don't understand the dynamics of friendship because we don't always do what they want, even if we feel "stuck" and fear "repercussions" as the main motivation for doing so?

Maybe it's just me, but my friends don't threaten me, either through implication or direct behavior. And they don't expect me to cater to them all the time.

Ah. Sacrosanct, I just proved my point. Look at you responding in smarmy kind to my responses. I just wanted to show reciprocal behavior. Thanks for being a test subject. Some people don't realize the truth of something until it is proven beyond what they can deny. You were such an easy subject of study.

And I am done with you. Thanks.

 

[Celtavian]

Um... its not the ONLY...

BECMI (Basic) easily falls into this category. This is primarily due to the fact there are few buffs (Clerics get bless, a 2nd level spell, at 4th level; magic-users get their first offensive buff, haste, at 5th), limited magic items (and some restrictions; like magic rings not stacking with magic armor), and math much closer to AD&D than d20 but still managed to work.

Playing a caster in BD&D usually meant you couldn't buff the fighter since there was nothing to buff them with. Sure, you got fly and haste, but that's about it. No prayer, strength, stoneskin, improved invisibility, fire shield, nothing. Instead, clerics often healing, divinations, and a few special attack spells (hold person, striking) while a wizard had utility magic (knock, water breathing, light) and attack spells (fireball, magic missile, etc). Fighters were pretty much on their freaking own.

Yeah, AD&D introduced many the classic buffs, but limited spell slots (no rituals, no cantrips) and some brutal restrictions (AD&D haste aged you a year, and could KILL you if failed your system shock!) meant buffs were still limited, least when I played. Wizards cast stoneskin on themselves since the fighter had 100 hp and the wizard had 40, one thrown rock from a giant turned you into paste. A few fighters got Strength cast on them and yes, we did cast fly on the fighter during a dragon fight, but overall I remember AD&D pretty buffing light.

Its really 3e and on that the idea of stacking, cascading bonuses becomes a thing. Pretty much because everything became a numerical bonus in that game, so a lot of spells became focused on increasing a given number (attack bonus, damage, AC, hp, saves or stats). 5e seems to be moving casters back from "buffing master" back to "blaster and problem solver", which is a good thing IMHO.

Never played past Basic and Expert of BECMI. Some of those old stopgaps were fun in 1st and 2nd edition. An elf didn't much care about being aged a year. Heck, most mages didn't. System Shock could be harsh. Rituals aren't that powerful. Old school casters were extremely powerful. More powerful than 5E. I played 1E and 2E wizards and multiclass casters. When you reached high level (and it took forever), you were ridiculous compared to other classes.

Sure, 3E took to a whole new level.

 

[Sacrosanct]

Ah. Sacrosanct, I just proved my point. Look at you responding in smarmy kind to my responses. I just wanted to show reciprocal behavior. Thanks for being a test subject. Some people don't realize the truth of something until it is proven beyond what they can deny. You were such an easy subject of study.

And I am done with you. Thanks.

So....the "I was just testing you" typical response of someone who gets caught? Nice... SMH

Not sure what you proved either, because I didn't call you names in that post like you have been been doing to me. But, I guess like everything else, you don't quite grasp what words mean. "Reciprocal behavior" would mean I would be attacking your personally with name calling because that's what you've done. Pretty sure that quote doesn't have any. I've only ever attacked your arguments.

So when are you going to put me on ignore like you keep promising?