D&D 5E 5th Edition has broken Bounded Accuracy

[Prism]

Our backup spell to get out of sh*t is either plane shift or Etherealness.

As for "anywhere near as good", still VERY good without foresight. It lasts 8 hours a day, so there have been times where we haven't had it running. Foresight just makes things silly.

My character also isn't built for pure damage (otherwise I wouldn't have taken resilient (WIS)). He's also very hard to kill. He can't really prevent monsters attacking other party members but he can kill them so quickly it becomes irrelevant.

Yeah they don't cut it for us. Plane shift is hard to work since you all need to get into circle to cast it which isn't ideal when you need a quick escape when its all got suddenly very wrong. Etherealness doesn't cover enough of the party until 9th level and also doesn't work the outer planes where the really hard stuff generally is for us

Btw I'm in agreement that a ranged fighter is the best damage dealer in the game by the look of it. I'm just not sure that using it as an example of broken AC's which was the question of this thread is that accurate. That one class with advantage and bless seems to have a pretty easy time hitting but I don't assume that's always the case

 

[KarinsDad]

At the same time? Nearly everyone I hear actually talk about their characters either (a) is playing in a game with house-rules that enable access to feats separately from ASIs, or (b) shoots for a 20 as soon as humanly possible because the benefits are just that good, for your main stat.

Yes, I have seen a few people shrug it off and say that they'd rather have the feats. But the vast majority of people I see talking about it go for the ability scores. Then again, there also seems to be an unbelievable amount of DM antipathy for feats in the first place, so perhaps that is distorting the sample.

In practice, I think it is more common than you think.

Our Battle Master Fighter in our game, for example, is level 6 with Heavy Armor Master, Sentinel, and Great Weapon Master feats. The sheer amount of damage he does and the amount he soaks up wading into any crowd of foes (mooks, toughs, or lieutenants) is fairly astronomical considering. Another +1 to hit and +1 to damage is white noise compared to an advantaged Feinting -5 to hit +10 damage attack (and for bonus GWM attacks). Even when not feinting, this PC still can use a bonus action for an extra attack when criticalling normally or for when taking out a foe. At 11 points of damage for a normal attack, 25 for a Feinting attack, and 2 to 3 attacks per round (sometimes more due to Sentinel), this PC is probably averaging about 22 DPR (probably about 18 DPR if the party is not managing to get multiple short rests).

Without feats, his DPR would increase by about 5 for +2 to hit and +2 damage two attacks per round, but it would decrease by about 8 DPR due to his two offensive feats not giving him a huge damage boost and extra attacks. And of course, his survivability would be a lot less without the extra DPR and the extra hit points from HAM.

Feats are huge in 5E.


Out of the first 5 single classed PCs to get to level 4 in our game, 4 of the players took a feat.

 

[MerricB]

This wasn't a spell casting Dragon. I happen to agree with you that spell casting Dragons are much more effective, but they're also an optional rule.

To be fair, so are feats!

It does seem that the -5/+10 feats when coupled with a lot of attacks can be very problematic.

Cheers!

 

[EvanNave55]

You say that Sharpshooter makes you deal way more damage and end the fight faster- which it might, but what sort of damage would you be doing without it, 'cause like someone else pointed out while it can greatly increase damage on hits depending on what your damage is with out it it still may not be increasing damage overall.

/Edit/ Sorry I tried replying directly to you Davedash but apparently it didn't work.

 

[Fanaelialae]

This wasn't a spell casting Dragon. I happen to agree with you that spell casting Dragons are much more effective, but they're also an optional rule.

You need to remember though that I can move 70ft and attack (Wood Elf) and I'm very likely to win initiative. I'm not a melee Fighter who's stuck plodding slowly along towards the Dragon. I can switch out to a longbow if I really have to and attack from 600ft away, sacrificing one bonus action attack. Not the end of the world really, and the Dragons never going to get close to me. A smart Dragon probably wouldn't even bother unless its protection its hoard, and that's a win for us.

Let's assume I didn't have foresight, Bless is a very expendable resource at high levels, and an EK can haste themselves (they get to pick a couple of extra spells outside their school, remember?). I'm still +10 to hit with Sharpshooter against AC22, so I'm still doing extremely good damage. If the Dragon wants to focus on me, then all the better, since I have great hit points, great AC, and can move around behind full cover. I also took Misty Step if it wants to try and grapple me and fly off. I'd probably draw a longbow and start shooting at it from very far, assuming it's going for me. If not I will crossbow expert and machine gun it to death (or at least, till it retreats).
Meanwhile I'd hope other party members are spamming faery fire at it, burning through its legendary resistance, or at least landing one, giving me the advantage to make the encounter "game over".

It's still an easy fight thanks to in LARGE part this class and feat combination. Foresight just makes it a faceroll.

You are correct that I did not "single handily" kill it, that was the wrong and an exaggeration on my part. But more like "did the vast majority of damage to it and made the encounter way easier than it should have been" would be more correct.

Now arguably again, this might be by design, given the name of the class I played.

I assumed it wasn't a spellcasting dragon. I was just explaining its options if it was. It isn't as though the spellcasting option increases the CR, and it seems as if your party could use the extra challenge. Alternately, you could throw in a handful of CR 6 Mages (trade Fly for Dispel Magic) for virtually no change in the CR of the fight (because of the large CR disparity) and great bang for your buck (now you have half a dozen chances to dispel Foresight and all the Counterspells you could ask for).

I also assumed that an EK wouldn't waste an action casting Haste unless he knew an encounter was coming. While the AC is nice, you're not getting much extra damage from it at that point (because you give up 3 attacks to gain an additional attack per round).

You said that your range was 120, so I think its reasonable to assume that that's the range you'd normally engage at. Dragon flies at 80 and the range of Dispel is 120. Meaning if you can hit the Dragon, that Dragon could Dispel you.

I'm not saying that you aren't very powerful. Just the opposite, you are. What I am saying is that I don't think you'd be quite the monster you are without the resources that your party invests in you. And because they invest so much in you, they have a weak point in you. If an enemy isolated you (such as using a Maze spell), the party's output would drop significantly. Possibly enough for your party to wipe. In the case of Maze, since the enemy knows where you'll reappear (albeit, not when) if he's managed to take care of the party there's a decent chance he could burn you down. Your EK is undoubtedly powerful, but he's not invincible. Heck, any 5th level caster that can cast Wind Wall can turn you into the lowest DPR character in the party (at least while you're on the other side of the Wind Wall) because it automatically negates ranged attacks.

 

[DaveDash]

I assumed it wasn't a spellcasting dragon. I was just explaining its options if it was. It isn't as though the spellcasting option increases the CR, and it seems as if your party could use the extra challenge. Alternately, you could throw in a handful of CR 6 Mages (trade Fly for Dispel Magic) for virtually no change in the CR of the fight (because of the large CR disparity) and great bang for your buck (now you have half a dozen chances to dispel Foresight and all the Counterspells you could ask for).

I also assumed that an EK wouldn't waste an action casting Haste unless he knew an encounter was coming. While the AC is nice, you're not getting much extra damage from it at that point (because you give up 3 attacks to gain an additional attack per round).

You said that your range was 120, so I think its reasonable to assume that that's the range you'd normally engage at. Dragon flies at 80 and the range of Dispel is 120. Meaning if you can hit the Dragon, that Dragon could Dispel you.

I'm not saying that you aren't very powerful. Just the opposite, you are. What I am saying is that I don't think you'd be quite the monster you are without the resources that your party invests in you. And because they invest so much in you, they have a weak point in you. If an enemy isolated you (such as using a Maze spell), the party's output would drop significantly. Possibly enough for your party to wipe. In the case of Maze, since the enemy knows where you'll reappear (albeit, not when) if he's managed to take care of the party there's a decent chance he could burn you down. Your EK is undoubtedly powerful, but he's not invincible. Heck, any 5th level caster that can cast Wind Wall can turn you into the lowest DPR character in the party (at least while you're on the other side of the Wind Wall) because it automatically negates ranged attacks.

I don't think you're really appreciating all the factors. Having not actually gone through this process and played this character, this is not a surprise.

High level parties have a lot of resources at their disposal. Investing bless is hardly what I call "significant". Foresight is a very efficient investment when you consider all the factors, but it's hardly the only way to gain advantage, which is a big enabler for feats like SS. Faery Fire spam is also another great way. Having a Wolf Totem Barbarian is another great way. Shield Bashing is also great, since monsters frustratingly don't get athletics or acrobatics. Or even worse for the DM, pick up 2 levels of Rogue.

Throwing tons of CR6 mages at the group seems like engineering the fight to take down one party member, which is usually a good indication there is an issue with a build. Also, the SS fighter with foresight can probably kill all of them before they got to act, they have poor AC and 40ish HP from memory.

You're also making a few assumptions such as a Dragon starting right on top of the group (nope), no scouting, no tactical planning, and that the Dragon is all aware and all seeing of all things. I honestly can't remember the exact details, maybe I used a longbow, maybe I didn't. What I do remember is the encounter was over very quickly with the Dragon fleeing with it's tail between its legs. We also fought tons of other things from crypts filled with Skeletons, vampires, wargs, to hordes of demons (one encounter was 110,000XP budget). The main theme was this class combination totally and utterly dominated the combat pillar of the game. Foresight was a factor, but there were times we did not have it up, and the theme was still the same.

The Great Weapon Master Fighter ended up being so useless that we swapped him out with another bow based Sharpshooting Fighter (Actually a Fighter11/Sorcerer6) and he also dominated combat, and hey guess what, only one Foresight to go around.

No one is invincible, and it's easy to sit here and arm chair general and pick holes in things. But what I can say with absolutely confidence is that Fighter + Sharpshooter + Crossbow expert definitely puts strains, if not outright breaks, bounded accuracy at the upper levels of the game.

Whether this is actually a problem or not, I will leave open to debate. What I consider a much bigger issues is this combination completely outclasses melee characters, which can cause issues at the table.

 

[DaveDash]

You say that Sharpshooter makes you deal way more damage and end the fight faster- which it might, but what sort of damage would you be doing without it, 'cause like someone else pointed out while it can greatly increase damage on hits depending on what your damage is with out it it still may not be increasing damage overall.

/Edit/ Sorry I tried replying directly to you Davedash but apparently it didn't work.

3 attacks per round you're adding +30. With crossbow expert this is 4 attacks per round, or +40.

Lets assume longbow d8+5 (9.5) - not using Sharpshooter, not using crossbow expert. Your average damage is 28.5 (9.5*3 attacks) attacking without using the -5/+10. This means even if you miss half the time with Sharpshooter (29.25 damage with 1.5 attacks), it's still worth it. Missing half the time with sharpshooter is still better than hitting with every attack without it.
With Crossbow expert and a hand crossbow its 34 (d6+5*4 attacks) average damage. If use sharpshooter and you miss half the time you're still doing 37 (d6+5+10*2 attacks) damage.

So if you have >=50% chance to hit and you're at least Level 11 in Fighter, you should always be using it. Given your attack bonus as a high level ranged fighter is +13, under the most UN-optimal situations where you have no buffs and no magic weapons, you should be using it against anything with AC 18 or worse. Throw in bless, magic items, advantage, and what have you, you could probably be using it all the time quite safety and easily come out ahead.

GMW - you're more gimped because you don't get that nice juicy +2 bonus that Archery Style gives you. Still with Bless and magic weapons it becomes very attractive.

 

[Mistwell]

I've actually done the maths, and up to about 5 attacks the chances are pretty good. That's still +50 and makes it worth while using it all the time.

My Fighter had +8 wisdom save, plus advantage on all saves, plus bless, which made it reasonably easy to resist fear and other effects. Since by far he was the main damage dealer (we added his damage up and he exceeded all other group members combined, including a melee GMW polearm master) it made sense for him to have foresight. Not only that, because he could shoot from range, he could hide behind cover and couldn't be targeted by many spells. Over the course of an adventuring day the damage output he could do aided by Foresight far exceeded the gains from any other 9th level spell, plus the effect on his survivability.

Melee Fighters really struggle in the late game. It's no wonder you don't think GMW isn't that powerful. The damage-per-encounter of our GMW polearm master fighter was very low compared to mine because he wasted so many rounds running around, huffing and puffing, trying to get within striking distance. The rub salt on the wounds if I did get engaged in melee I could tank awesomely, thanks to the brokeness of crossbow expert, and spells like shield.

We use roll20 and went and added up the damage I'd do per round over the course of the day, and it was about 85 DPR over an entire adventuring day. The melee Fighter was about 30 DPR. Don't forget this is per round, not per attack, so there are rounds when you're not attacking. Over ~10-15 rounds per day this adds up to a huge difference in numbers, a huge difference in effectiveness, and puts strains on bounded accuracy and the combat pillar of the game.

I would love to see your build for that fighter (not because I think it's inaccurate, but because it sounds awesome).

 

[DaveDash]

I would love to see your build for that fighter (not because I think it's inaccurate, but because it sounds awesome).

I've just looked on roll20 and can't find the campaign, so I think the DM may have deleted it. However it was just an EK17, standard array.

I do still have access to this guy though, who was a Ftr11 (champion)/Sorc6. Arguably more fun to play, more versatile, but a bit less powerful due to less Action Surges. I liked him though because Sorc gives you more flexibility in spell casting.

He wasn't crossbow expert, he was longbow instead. He was still a total machine in combat.




I can't find his spell list, but it was basically stuff like Haste, Misty Step, Shield, Feather Fall, etc.

 

[Psikerlord#]

Our campaign is still relatively low level so I can't really contribute except speculatively, but I'm wondering if they should have set 18 as the maximum.

I know that back when I DM'd 1st & 2nd Ed one of our houserules was that magic weapons had a maximum +1 to hit but the damage could still be higher. Example: A powerful sword might be +1 to hit/+3 on damage. This idea might work for 5e being as how hit points are the balancing factor.

MK

These are excellent houserules if you want to keep AC relevant at higher levels. Me like.