D&D General 6-8 encounters (combat?)

[Fanaelialae]

Also @Fanaelialae

It is realistic to feel a deep renewal of energy that seems to come from nowhere. These experiences are uncommon but happen. The renewal can be from extensive relaxation to recharge, or oppositely a "second wind" in the midst of daunting challenges. To occasionally switch a short rest as the only way to gain the benefits of a long rest, is narratively verisimilitudinous.

I started this thread in the OneD&D forum to discuss in more detail counting two long rests per encounter.

I disagree.

Sure, you could tie "long rest" benefits to a level. That's not hugely problematic, although, this is a common feature in video games, so you'd probably get complaints that this turns the game into Diablo or something to that effect.

It's connecting resource recovery exclusively to leveling up that's problematic (because it's very meta). My wizard can relax at Club Med for a month, but the only way his hit points and spells are going to recover naturally is if he goes out and murders a few more goblins. That pretty much drop kicks verisimilitude out the window in favor of an heavily gamist mechanic.

 

[Yaarel]

I disagree.

Sure, you could tie "long rest" benefits to a level. That's not hugely problematic, although, this is a common feature in video games, so you'd probably get complaints that this turns the game into Diablo or something to that effect.

It's connecting resource recovery exclusively to leveling up that's problematic (because it's very meta). My wizard can relax at Club Med for a month, but the only way his hit points and spells are going to recover naturally is if he goes out and murders a few more goblins. That pretty much drop kicks verisimilitude out the window in favor of an heavily gamist mechanic.

Levels describe a gain in personal accomplishment and capability while facing challenges.

If a character doesnt face any challenges, neither will there be loss in hit points or resources, nor any need to refresh.

To need a refresh means facing challenges (and gaining levels), whether social challenges, exploratory challenges, or combat.

Besides, the gaming math itself connects long rests to each level, precisely.

Each level has a specific amount of experience points. Each encounter has a specific amount of experience points. There is a specific number of long rests per level. It is the way the game works.

Narratively, it is fine.

 

[Maxperson]

I disagree.

Sure, you could tie "long rest" benefits to a level. That's not hugely problematic, although, this is a common feature in video games, so you'd probably get complaints that this turns the game into Diablo or something to that effect.

The way the game is set up, there's already no good answer. I don't see tying it to a level up to be any different from once every seven days. Either way it's not really connected to actual resting, but is simply based on game mechanics.

The problem to me with saying 3 long rests per level is that players often panic, not knowing what is coming up or if they feel like they are too low on resources, even if they aren't. I guarantee you that they will rest too soon at least once, and probably 2 or 3 times, making a TPK inevitable since they can't get any long rest abilities or full rest healing until after too many fights for them to handle.

Either the DM TPKs the party, or he adjusts on the back-end which makes the 3 per level restriction meaningless.

Edit: Alternatively, they might push too far in order not to rest too early and TPK because they are too low on resources for a fight.

 

[Flamestrike]

I realize this is sarcasm, but not playing fighters isn't much of a solution to the issue of balancing fighters against other classes. It's basically just ignoring the issue and pretending it went away.

The way you balance them is you recognize that Fighters get most of their oomph from short rests, while Casters get it from long rests.

You then accept the fact that the game (and the classes) are balanced around 2-3 short rests per long rest, and an adventuring 'day' (it could be a month or more of in game time depending on what rest variant you use) of 6-8 medium to hard encounters as a median.

Are your Fighters getting 2-3 short rests for every Long rest the Wizard gets? If the answer is 'no' it's your job as DM to do something about it.

Doom clocks, rest variants, or whatever it takes.

 

[Dausuul]

Why should they have to? Skill checks and role-playing works just as well in many, many situations. A caster player would be acting in their best interest to avoid using magic outside combat unless necessary.

Because sometimes you blow your skill check, or screw up the RP. And then--if the DM has made noncombat encounters as consequential as combat--somebody finds themselves about to die in a trap, or the party has to escape from fifty angry orcs, or the king is about to hand the MacGuffin over to the Big Bad.

Then you either cast a spell, or lose PCs (or MacGuffins). And often the spell to get you out of this situation is significantly higher level than a spell which could have kept you from getting into that situation in the first place.

Trying to tackle every noncombat encounter with skill checks is like trying to tackle every combat encounter with cantrips and basic attacks. You can get away with it if the DM is going easy on you. If not, you're apt to false-economy your way into a lot of pain.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Uh... no? Do you run the exact same combat with the exact same make-up of enemies that all do the exact same tactics in the exact same locations and have one each and every game session? If you do, then yeah, maybe your players might notice the trends. But since I don't run my combats in that way... every combat is different and every combat has each character having different ways to work and shine and be successful. No one is wasting their time counting up how much damage each character did because everyone has more important things to do in the fight.

Then how is it that other people notice these trends? Are you just a superior DM, or are people making this stuff up to score points on the internet?

 

[Fanaelialae]

Levels describe a gain in personal accomplishment and capability while facing challenges.

If a character doesnt face any challenges, neither will there be loss in hit points or resources, nor any need to refresh.

To need a refresh means facing challenges (and gaining levels), whether social challenges, exploratory challenges, or combat.

Besides, the gaming math itself connects long rests to each level, precisely.

Each level has a specific amount of experience points. Each encounter has a specific amount of experience points. There is a specific number of long rests per level. It is the way the game works.

Narratively, it is fine.

If you say so.

From where I'm standing it looks to me like you're doing extreme mental gymnastics to try to dress up a gamist mechanic in narrativist clothing.

IME, resource recovery because they rested for X time makes sense to players from a narrative perspective.

Resource recovery because they leveled? Not so much. I had some pretty massive pushback from numerous players on the old 3.x action points (which only recovered on level up) and those were more luck based than anything else, so it almost didn't matter where they came from narratively.

 

[Yaarel]

If you say so.

From where I'm standing it looks to me like you're doing extreme mental gymnastics to try to dress up a gamist mechanic in narrativist clothing.

IME, resource recovery because they rested for X time makes sense to players from a narrative perspective.

Resource recovery because they leveled? Not so much. I had some pretty massive pushback from numerous players on the old 3.x action points (which only recovered on level up) and those were more luck based than anything else, so it almost didn't matter where they came from narratively.

From reallife experience: some rests feel more refreshing than other rests. Sometimes a feeling of new energy is despite resting well.

 

[Micah Sweet]

From reallife experience: some rests feel more refreshing than other rests. Sometimes a feeling of new energy is despite resting well.

But deciding when those thing happen is incredibly gamist.

 

[Yaarel]

But deciding when those thing happen is incredibly gamist.

Rolling dice to decide when a long rest happens is less gamist?

Besides, forcing every day to have seven combat encounters is the worst kind of gamism.



By counting encounters per level instead − combat becomes narrative.

The combat encounter might all happen in a single day. Or each combat encounter can be days or years apart.

Because some characters have survived extreme situations, they do level up faster. Other characters might take decades to reach the same level.

This is narrative gold.