D&D 5E 9 Characters using the Encounter Building Math

[AnotherGuy]

So, I have been running the Adventure League modules for Tyranny of Dragons with my table's group C characters. We have finished all the modules and the PCs agreed, the 9 surviving character (4 players) were going to attempt in retaking Phlan from Vorgansharax, the green dragon who rules the town by the end of the AL campaign, either by slaying him or chasing him off.

Most the characters are round 7th level and I want to use (and stick to) using the encounter building math within the DMG for this attempt. i.e. everything (all encounters) will be drawn up beforehand. I want to plan it purely from a gamist perspective with some strategy (choices taken) required by the players. Hence, I am interested in using math for this exercise.

We all know how the math in the encounter building messes up as the characters increase in level.
So, how would you adjust the encounter builder in the DMG for 9 characters of level 7 each? i.e. the effective level of the characters for purpose of determining your XP budget when building an encounter.

Maybe some of you have had experience with many characters or adjusted the math for larger groups...

Just as an aside, I will be using Level Up's monsters. They're definitely improvements on the original but they use the same CR.

EDIT: I rarely use the encounter builder. I generally decide based on gut-feel. But this is a gamist exercise.

EDIT2: These are not their primary characters but I'd like to make this series of encounters fair and competitive. If a character dies, so be it - but a win here by the group cements major victory points for their primary party.

 

[J-H]

EDIT: I rarely use the encounter builder. I generally decide based on gut-feel.

This.
7th level has good damage, but they're a bit squishy-ish (not a ton of healing, not enough spell slots for great defenses, not a bunch of +AC/save items). That said, there are 9 of them.

I'd probably count them around equal to an 11th or 12th level party, but beware of AOE damage being disproportionately effective if it hits all of them, and debuffs/crowd control being relatively ineffective unless they hit lots of targets. Banishment or Hold Person on 2 targets is not going to do a lot to slow them down.

Any enemies you want to have stay alive will need mobility.

 

[Stalker0]

I'd probably count them around equal to an 11th or 12th level party, but beware of AOE damage being disproportionately effective if it hits all of them, and debuffs/crowd control being relatively ineffective unless they hit lots of targets. Banishment or Hold Person on 2 targets is not going to do a lot to slow them down.

If we are talking about 9 7th level characters = 4 Xth level characters....I would say closer to 14th/15th level. Yeah its that high, the offense of this party will dwarf even many high level parties in terms of raw pain, they will be able to mow through monsters. I can't understate how important the action economy is in 5e, everything else is secondary.

The catch though is those areas effects. Your dragon with its breath weapon, or a big fight with a lot of fireballs, I would increase the encounter budget of those by another 25-30%, as they will have an inordinate power against your party. On the flip side, legendary actions and resistances will be much weaker against this party than normal (I wouldn't actually bother with boss monsters in this encounter other than maybe your final dragon, they will just get smoked).

Honestly I wish you luck, I find that even a 5th or 6th party members completely throws the encounter numbers out the window. I can't imagine what 9 will do. My gut says they will either get TPKed by some crazy lucky fire breath or something....or they decimiate everything you throw at them without a care in the world.

 

[Stormonu]

Sounds like we are talking about an end-boss level solo encounter, and I usually do that at a level +3 or +4. With 9 characters, I'd up that another couple notches. A dragon? Up that danger level another notch, want to make it be a tough fight. So, I'd probably go with a Level +5 deadly encounter, expecting 2-3 PCs not to survive the encounter, and the rest to be severely battered.

 

[Oofta]

I use an alternate encounter calculator that I found on this forum long ago, it basically ignores the number multiplier and does the calculation slightly differently. I find that it works quite well, but I still have to adjust based on the group. I've run two groups simultaneously using exactly the same rules and assumptions, sometimes with the exact same monsters. One group could handle far more than the other, so there's no one answer.

In any case, I've attached the spreadsheet I use. I'm sure if you dove into the code you could simplify it and probably do it manually but since it works I don't bother.

 

[overgeeked]

So, how would you adjust the encounter builder in the DMG for 9 characters of level 7 each? i.e. the effective level of the characters for purpose of determining your XP budget when building an encounter.

For an encounter for 9 7th-level PCs, I'd do this:

AC 16. +8 to-hit, saves, & skill checks. Attacks 1 per PC (9). Save DC 15.

Medium. HP 32 per PC (288). Damage 2d6+6 (13) per attack. This is your standard official 5E cakewalk.
Hard. HP 48 per PC (432). Damage 2d6+13 (20) per attack. This is a bit harder, 1/2 again as tough.
Deadly. HP 64 per PC (576). Damage 2d6+19 (26) per attack. This is usually where I start encounters, x2 the medium.

This is the stat block for the encounter. Divide up those hit points and attacks however you want. One monster with 9 attacks, 9 monsters with 1 attack each, etc. Or just decide what's there, but don't go over on the number of attacks or hit points. If you want that stat block to represent 100 orc soldiers, go for it. The encounter still have that many hit points and that many attacks. Either have a lot of creatures and/or a boss with legendary actions and resistances. Give them at least one resistance and one vulnerability. Try to sign post both. Come up with a theme for the monsters or base them on something official. Get creative and weird with their attacks and combat style. Drop the encounter onto some interesting terrain that the monsters can use to their advantage. This keeps the PCs from standing and hacking away. And it's a lot more fun.

 

[Quickleaf]

For nine 7th level PCs of experienced players, decent teamwork, lightly to moderately optimized, a few magic items?

Something like < 90,000 adjusted XP per day. Roughly half of that (50,000 adjusted XP) having the makings of pretty hard fight. More than that inching up towards a real serious dire challenge. Probably not quite ready for more than 75% of that (67,500 adj XP) in one encounter (at least not until they're 9th or 11th).

This is based on feel having run for that level for a party of 7-8 (though not consistently) & currently running for a 3rd level party of 9. I basically took the DMG p. 84 table "Adventuring Day XP" and doubled each PC's XP value (a lot like the encounter multiplier for 3-6 monsters) to get a rough upper limit threshold.

But this is just cause you asked for the numbers. Honestly, I don't think this is anywhere near as valuable as your "soft sense"/intuition.

 

[AnotherGuy]

But this is just cause you asked for the numbers. Honestly, I don't think this is anywhere near as valuable as your "soft sense"/intuition.

I 100% agree with you. I'm trying to obtain a benchmark in order to use it, should I wish for the primary campaign.

There are three categories that I believe affect the level modifier that should all work on some sort of sliding scale perhaps
(i) homebrew rules/magical items, which I feel is something that will be a personalised modifier for the table given our diverse homebrewery;
(ii) party size (possibly composition, but that I feel is far too technical); and
(iii) correcting the initial math of the table as it seems to fall apart as the average level of the party increases

After my session which is near the end of the month, I will post my findings and how I worked the encounter budget.

 

[kigmatzomat]

Something I did in previous editions with large groups was to treat them as a normal size group then double the lone boss in # actions and hit points.

Meaning for a party of 4 if the calculator said use a Young Green dragon (136hp, 3 attacks, breath recharges 5-6), for a party of 9 I give it 272hp, 6 attacks (breath consumes 3), breath recharges on 3-6, and 3 Legendary resistances. Their bite/claw/breath damage is unchanged, fear/breath dcs are the same, Ac & saves are the same, etc.

This is pretty close to fighting two young greens. The faster recharges and Legendary resistances mimic fighting two dragons, where 75% of the time, one of them could breath and its unlikely both would fail saves at the same time.

If the Adult used its Legendaries just for tail attacks, the action economy is identical. The double-young has more hp than an Adult Green but hits less often, does less damage, fear/breath dcs are lower, and doesn't have the AoE wing attacks.

I would make it colossal but just barely (20x20) and call it an adolescent dragon.