A Bonus Sorcerer spells known feat?

[Piratecat]

Bryon, let it go, please. Remember the part where we all play a game that we love, and that means many of us have become friends? Even if you're responding to a post by someone that you may not be buddies with in real life, it always pays to be polite.

I do happen to agree that allowing a lot of extra spells is likely to be too powerful.

Not that you asked, but I've introduced items in my game that add 1-3 specific spells to a sorcerer's repertoire, usually along a theme, such as charm person/suggestion/eagle's splendor. I balanced it by (a) making the item a tall, pointy, obvious wizard's hat that screams "I am a spellcaster", and (b) requiring that the item be worn for one hour before the spells become accessible to the sorcerer.

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Concerning the original question, I agree that the feat in Tome and Blood is too weak - I've yet to see any sorcerer take it. A human sorcerer gains a maximum of eight feats by the time he's reached 18th level. Using two or three of these to gain two or three low-to-medium level spells known is far too expensive, IMHO. For those who feel the proposed feat (Cha bonus to known spells) is too powerful, how many sorcerer characters have you seen take the "more balanced" T&B feat?

Now while many posters apparently consider allowing a sorcerer character to gain extra known spells based on their Charisma score unbalanced, I don't (at least not in my campaigns). Off hand, I can think of only two situations where such a feat might be unbalanced:
1. The sorcerer character is able to gain an unusually high Charisma score. A 20 is powerful, but not overwhelming. A score of 26-30 is, IMHO, too high for any but the very highest levels. Anything above that has pushed into the realm of superpowers.
2. The GM runs a low-magic campaign. In such a situation, all spellcasters tend to be limited significantly, which means the original feat in T&B may be more in line with the campaign.

Let's look at the numbers. We'll assume a 10th-level sorcerer with a Charisma of 21. For the cost of one feat, his Cha score would allow him to know the following additional spells:
1st - 2
2nd - 1
3rd - 1
4th - 1
5th - 1

This gives the same sorcerer the following total known spells:
0 - 9
1st - 7
2nd - 5
3rd - 4
4th - 3
5th - 2

Does this really look unbalancing? And for those who think so, how many have actually playtested this? I have in several campaigns, and found that sorcerers simply gain a small amount of flexibility, hardly unbalancing.

Now considering the responses some have made: Given that every campaign is different, and players have had different experiences, this feat will not work for everyone. That's not the same as saying that it doesn't work for anyone, that it's "broken", that it's "twinky", etc. If someone is going to make such a statement, at least back it up with cogent arguments.

As for the sarcastic quote that started some of the name-calling, it's always a good rule of thumb to assume the poster meant no harm. That's almost always the case - it can be very difficult to convey nuance in writing. A smiley face or two in the post would have helped, but in the end, responding to a perceived insult just escalates the problem.

 

[Darklone]

Hmm. Got a feat here but don't know where it is from (likely copied from some houserule board):

Let's call it Versatility, I don't have a name here:
Prerequ: Wis 13+, able to cast 2nd level spontaneous arcane spells.
Benefit: You may change a number equal to your charisma modifier spell slots/day into spells known. Such a change is permanent and may only be revoked by a Wish or similar magic.

Hmm. May still be a little unbalanced... but do you guys think it's ok?

 

[Darklone]

Sir Whiskers: at level 12, Charisma around 24-28 is more like it ... at least due to my experience with the high level builds here on the board.

 

[Dreeble]

Heya:

Here's a house-rules-ish sort of idea: Sorcerors need a way to make Prestige Classes less attractive to them. That is, Sorcerors give up very little when switching to a prestige class, and giving something up is (in my opinion) part of the balance of PrCs. So, add a new class ability to 'em that lets Sorcerors, each level (or every second level or whatever), get one additional known spell subtracted from the "bonus spells" based on charisma. So, for example, a Sorceror advances to 10th lvl and has a Charisma of 20 (+2/+1/+1/+1, right?). The sorceror can add an extra known 5th lvl spell, or an extra known lower level spell assuming that level hasn't been tapped out yet.

Hmm. I'm thinking every other level now that I've typed this out.

Anyway, this gives Sorcerors a wee bit of extra flexibility and makes sticking with the class slightly more attractive (need to reinforce in the class ability description that "+1 level to existing spellcaster class" doesn't contribute to this class ability).

Take care,
Dreeble

 

[Sir Whiskers]

Sir Whiskers: at level 12, Charisma around 24-28 is more like it ... at least due to my experience with the high level builds here on the board.

I think this is right on with many campaigns. I tend to approach things a bit differently, giving characters good starting stats, but limiting their ability to boost/enhance the stats as they gain levels. Once a prime req gets above 22, bonus spells become problematic for all the spellcasting classes, IMHO.

Dreeble: I really like the idea of giving sorcerers a reason to stick with the core class, vs prestige classes. I wish WOTC had done something along these lines with 3.5E. Looking at your idea, it seems fairly balanced to me (keeping in mind I actually like the idea of bonus spells known based on Cha ). For simplicity, I might just allow the sorcerer to burn a feat or two to gain an extra known spell at every 2nd or 3rd level. One possible progression follows.

Feat 1:
2nd: bonus 0
4th: bonus 1st
6th: bonus 2nd

Feat 2:
8th: bonus 3rd
10th: bonus 4th
12th: bonus 5th

Not sure if I'd continue the progression beyond a free 5th level spell, as the higher-level spells are so powerful (maybe for another feat). By separating the bonus spells from Cha, this also avoids the problem of giving bonus spells when a character has a very high Cha score.

 

[Squire James]

Feats tend to have a fixed effect that does not directly depend on level or an ability score, though both can be prerequisites. Personally, I think "Extra Spell" is weak; if anyone wanted to talk to me about it I would probably allow a feat to gain 3 spell slots (of which only 1 can be of the highest level they can cast at the time the feat is taken).

Besides, if the Charisma-based slot increase feat is available, what kind of self-respecting Sorcerer wouldn't take it? I mean, if a Fighter bonus feat allowed him to double his Strength bonus to damage, awfully few Fighters would fail to take it (excluding finesse fighters for now, though even they would take it at Str 14+). Base the feat on something other than the class' prime stat, and then we can talk!

 

[smetzger]

The thing is, many (maybe even most) of the people who post here are DMs. And DMs tend to think about balance issues more than players do, because if one player has an overpowered character, it makes running the game extremely difficult. It's really about the same as the difference in perspective held by front line workers and management. One side thinks in personal terms, and the other thinks in big-picture terms.

So anyway, please don't imply that people who don't like power-gaming are jerks.

I'd rather be called a jerk than management

 

[Gez]

If my memory don't fail me, back when 3e was fresh and young, long before Tome & Blood was published, there was a Netbook called the Netbook of Fee, err, Feat; and inside was a feat that "mirrored" more or less (rather less, actually) the Spell Mastery feat of wizards.

It allowed a sorcerer to add to his spell known list a number of spells equal to his Cha bonus.

This was much more than the T&B feat, but less, I think, that the bonus spells known based on Cha.

Also, this this, as it may be another way.

 

[Oni]

There's a feat in Quintessential Sorcerer that is pretty much identicle to the one from T&B except it lets you take two new spells instead of one. Has a high ability score prereq.


On a side note, I really don't like when they try to balance a really good feat with a high ability score, I think its a terrible idea. It's like giving extra advantages to a character that already has advantages that others might not.


(note: Gripes aside Quint Sorc. is still pretty cool. Rarely have I read a book that has just inspired me to want to make a character so much. There are a lot of good ideas in there. Think of it as a diamond in the rough.)