D&D 5E A case where the 'can try everything' dogma could be a problem

The GM should determine the answer to the best of his or her ability, with a focus on maintaining the illusion that this is a real world and not some cheap novel.

Players can do this, too. It's true, I've seen it in action. :)

The GM is expected to be fair in making this determination, and may opt to rule dice to represent areas of uncertainty. If a third of the back alleys in a particular city contain dumpsters, but the GM hasn't decided beforehand whether this one does or does not, then a roll of 1 or 2 on a d6 would mean that this alley does.

That's certainly a way to do it. A good way, in fact. Especially if the player isn't interested in giving input.

Or the GM could ask the player to roll, of course, but the outcome would depend on external circumstances (the nature of the city) rather than how well the character searches the alley. Dice are just a randomizer, and don't confer any power to the one making the roll.

This part I agree with you, actually. In my games, rolling the dice is about interacting with the environment, not determining it.

The GM has authorship power within the world. The player does not.

In your games, if your players enjoy them, then that's great. No matter how many times you write it in this thread, though, doesn't turn this opinion into a universal truth.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

In your games, if your players enjoy them, then that's great. No matter how many times you write it in this thread, though, doesn't turn this opinion into a universal truth.
It's true within the context of any role-playing game where the GM determines the environment and the players interact with that world solely as their characters. This is the basic and most common form of role-playing, encompassing a huge swath of games throughout the history of the hobby, and individual preferences to the contrary are the exception rather than the rule.
 

It's true within the context of any role-playing game where the GM determines the environment and the players interact with that world solely as their characters. This is the basic and most common form of role-playing, encompassing a huge swath of games throughout the history of the hobby, and individual preferences to the contrary are the exception rather than the rule.

You might be surprised. They aren't called indie games any more for a reason.

There may be styles of games today that you might not want to play (I know that's certainly true for me), but that doesn't make them any less valid. Nor do I understand the point of even trying to argue such.
 

If the thing exists, then a Perception check can find it. If the thing doesn't exist, then no amount of success on a Perception check can possibly find it. Whether that thing exists (and can be found) or doesn't exist (and thus cannot be found) should have been determined by the GM prior to the player character searching for that thing; it can't causally depend on whether or not the character is looking for it.
Now we're getting into the philosophical. The old tree falling in the forest when there's no one there to hear it. Nature of the observer & the observed. Even IRL, where most of us, children of a scientific age, have no problem believing there's an objective reality, the power of expectation and perception to shape how we experience that reality is well-known.

For an imaginary world, so much the moreso. If the DM hadn't thought about a detail, and a PC goes looking for it, the DM could decide, on the spot, whether it was there to be found. Or, he could let the PC make the check, and, only if he succeeds, make that decision (because the detail remains irrelevant if the PC doesn't notice or interact with it in any way). To the player, there's no difference between either of those and the DM deciding beforehand.

Once the game starts, the player (in most editions of D&D, and many similar games) has zero authorship power beyond the in-game-world capabilities of the PC.
That's mainly a matter of style, not of the game, itself.

Moreover, from a Sim/RP standpoint, the player doesn't want authorship power over any part of the world's history.
Very much a matter of style & opinion, especially with regard to RP. A player might well want to fill in gaps in his character's backstory long after chargen, for instance, so as to best RP the character.

Asking a strong simulationist player to repeatedly assume the author-stance is effectively asking that player to leave the table, because this game isn't for them.
Frankly, anyone who would leave the table over something like that (whether because they feel 'forced' into the stance, are are whinging over being forced out of it) should leave the table whether they encounter the issue or not - and try an alternative to TT, because they just don't play well with others.

Whether the defender parries is something that happens right now, and is a direct reflection of something that is within the power of the character. The player doesn't author anything. The player makes decisions on behalf of the character, but it's entirely the character who successfully manages to control the outcome of an action.
How a successful parry is described may be well within the realm of 'player authorship,' and even whether it does can depend on the player using a resource the PC may not have direct control over or awareness of (like 'luck'). And, though I'm getting tired of saying it, the character still doesn't exist - at most, you might assert that the resolution mechanics 'control' the outcome of an action.

And if the character fails to hit, then it's the opposing character who succeeded in parrying or dodging or whatever. The fact that the rules (in D&D) give the defender a static AC of 10 + bonuses, rather than asking the defender to roll d20 + bonuses, is irrelevant to the fact that the defending character is actively defending.
I'm pleasantly surprised that you grok that.

To contrast, any detail of the enemy's armor would have been determined long before this combat ever started, and is not something that the character has any control over
First half of that statement is false, the DM may not have made any prior determination of such a detail. Second half, OTOH, sure, the imaginary character has no control over the imagined nature of the imaginary armor.

That fact of the game world is beyond the agency of the character, and is thus something that only the GM can determine, and which should have been determined prior to the check being made.
Again, it depends. In 5e, ultimately, everything is under the DM's control. In other eds & games, maybe not so much. But, even in 5e, the DM can cede some of that control to existing or improvised resolution systems, or, indeed, to the players.

Yeah, that's kind of the point. In a simulationist game, the players have no agency beyond that of their characters. Everything that happened within the game world, prior to the game actually starting, is a matter for the GM to determine. Everything that happens after the game starts is determined by the GM and the player characters.
Simulationism is an attitude toward games. Simulationist may like games that sacrifice playability the way actual simulations do, but that doesn't make the game 'simulationist,' and no game can be held to that philosophical extreme. Certainly not a game as far pre-dating the concept, and as murky in it's beginnings, and as intentionally inclusive to a wide range of styles in it's current incarnation, as D&D.

And it's not entirely a binary state, either. Games can be more or less simulationist, but the more you slide along the spectrum toward narrativism, the further away from simulation you end up.
Narrativism and Simulationism can certainly both ruin a game if taken too far, because they can go and sacrifice the things that make a game at all playable ('gamist' considerations). But, that's more a matter of how a game is played, than what the game is. A game is a game, and RPG is a specific kind of game, but a simulation and a narrative are not games, at all, nor or they mutually exclusive. An historical re-enactment, for instance, is both a simulation and a narrative.
 

Whether the defender parries is something that happens right now, and is a direct reflection of something that is within the power of the character. The player doesn't author anything. The player makes decisions on behalf of the character, but it's entirely the character who successfully manages to control the outcome of an action.
I think there are 6 years of debate about Come and Get It that disagree with this - all those who characterise CaGI as "martial mind control" - because whether or not an enemy moves is within the control of that enemy - presumably take the same view about

If the thing exists, then a Perception check can find it. If the thing doesn't exist, then no amount of success on a Perception check can possibly find it.
Undoubtedly. But this formulation involves crossing the boundary between ingame and real world.

The Perception check happens in the real world. Whether or not the thing exists is a fact about the ingame world. In the real world, the question is about how, and by whom, the ingame fact is authored. It can certainly be true that both (i) the successful Perception check settles an authorship question, and therefore (ii) the successful Perception check indicates that the character finds an existent thing.

Whether that thing exists (and can be found) or doesn't exist (and thus cannot be found) should have been determined by the GM prior to the player character searching for that thing; it can't causally depend on whether or not the character is looking for it.

The GM determines everything that happened with the past of the game-world
Two things.

(1) In the situation I described there is no causal dependence upon whether or not the PC looks for the thing. The causal fact is an ingame fact. It does not follow from the fact that something is authored by a player that, ingame, that fact is caused by the character.

(2) It's not, in general, true that the GM determines everything that happened in the past of the gameworld. Just to give the most common examples, players often author histories for their PCs - sometimes before play starts, sometimes during the course of play - which determine facts about the past of the gameworld (eg genealogies).

Once the game starts, the player (in most editions of D&D, and many similar games) has zero authorship power beyond the in-game-world capabilities of the PC.
The GM has authorship power within the world. The player does not.
These are statements of play preference, but not statements about necessary features of RPGs or RPGing.
 

Frankly, anyone who would leave the table over something like that (whether because they feel 'forced' into the stance, are are whinging over being forced out of it) should leave the table whether they encounter the issue or not - and try an alternative to TT, because they just don't play well with others.
In some cases, the entire group may quit the game, because it's too much effort to reconcile what the rules are saying with any sort of simulationist principles. Not every game out there will work for every group of players.

While individual players and groups may have their own preferences, some rule sets do not lend themselves to easily supporting preferred play-styles. If you've read (or played) Savage Worlds, many of the rules are designed to encourage interesting outcomes rather than realistic ones, even within the context of a fantasy world. One of the most frequent refrains within the text is that things should only happen when they are interesting, or make the situation more dramatic.

How a successful parry is described may be well within the realm of 'player authorship,' and even whether it does can depend on the player using a resource the PC may not have direct control over or awareness of (like 'luck').
The presence of non-character player resources is a good example of a game mechanic which doesn't lend itself to support of a simulationist playstyle.

Narrativism and Simulationism can certainly both ruin a game if taken too far, because they can go and sacrifice the things that make a game at all playable ('gamist' considerations).
Presentation matters, too. It may be easier to accept a break from simulationist principles where doing so is necessary to keep the game playable. That's pretty much the underlying principle of GURPS, which is a strong contender for the most-sim-focused game on the market; for the game to be playable at all, it must be simpler than the reality it's trying to model.

Narrative concessions might be harder to accept, when presented as such. Again, going back to Savage Worlds, it may be harder for a heavy sim-focused player to accept that anything should happen because it's dramatic.
 

1 plus imaginations work better than 1, so as long as the table has an understanding on how the non-specified parts of the game work. It is everyone's game. And due to the abstract nature of 5e or any RPG for that matter, anything could be rolled on since the character, items, or objects that are presented to them is only a snap shot in time. It is obvious everything can not be planned for and from my perspective it is more rewarding if everyone at the table contributes to the story. Some of my best memories as a DM is reacting to player input. The challenge is finding the right balance.
 

You might be surprised. They aren't called indie games any more for a reason.
Language varies depending on the circles in which you travel. There are still many who would consider something like FATE to be an indie game, or at the very least, an attempt to bring strong indie principles into the mainstream.

Words have meaning. Where 'traditional RPG' and 'indie RPG' have different meanings, we can use those labels to convey useful information, and can help to ensure that players/groups more easily find games which they will enjoy. These days, I can usually trust the back cover or an online summary to convey the information necessary to let me know whether I would be able to play the game or not. Non-GM player-authorship is unique enough of a feature that it usually warrants a mention, at the very least.

I don't want to play a game which requires non-character player resources, or where the non-GM player-authorship is so deeply ingrained that it cannot be ignored. I don't want to be tricked into buying those books, merely because they've presented themselves as though they weren't as radical as they really are.

It's kind of like when Nintendo introduced their waggle-stick controller. I get that it's still a video game, but it's different enough that I don't want to deal with it, and it was annoying to research every game for that system just to determine whether I could play it without using the waggle-stick.
 
Last edited:

To the player, there's no difference between either of those and the DM deciding beforehand.

I don't really want to get caught up in this, and my comment is really just a clarification because you may very well agree. For almost all of the examples used in this thread, the DM resolving it one way rather than another may not be noticeable in a single case. Even in a hard-core simulationist, exploration-focused game, a DM can pull off "Yes, there's a box" or even "Yes, but..." or "Yes, and..." on-the-fly narrativist resolutions from time to time without pinging most players' radars. In many cases, for a single instance, or even scattered instances, there's no way to tell the difference.

But if the DM makes these kinds of determinations with any regularity, it will be noticeable and will affect the game experience. When you're playing in a simulationist, exploration-focused game, you know it. The difference is tangible. You become accustomed to answers such as "No, there are no crates or boxes in the alley. Timber is quite rare in this region and the winters are very cold, so anything like that left lying around would be broken up and used for firewood." Now, the DM may not have written in his notes that there are no crates in the alley, but he does know that wood is rare and the winters are cold, and he uses that knowledge of the world -- not story considerations -- to answer the player's question about the environment.

Over time and across multiple DM decisions/resolutions, it will become very evident to anyone paying attention what kind of game it is. And to players who strongly prefer one style of play to another, that distinction will be very important.

ETA: This is one reason I think the original Threefold formulation was more useful than what was done with it subsequently. Game, Simulation, and Drama were explicitly used to describe the priorities and processes for making decisions and adjudicating resolutions in a game. Whether there's a crate or not, the important point is why there is a crate or not -- or specifically, why the DM is ruling that there is a crate or not. Is its existence (or nonexistence) derived by the DM from characteristics of the game world? Is it derived from considerations about the game (challenge, resources, tactical depth, etc.)? Or is the decision made (whether by player or DM) based on what is most dramatic, or narratively empowering, or suspenseful, or complicating, or...?
 
Last edited:

Words have meaning. Where 'traditional RPG' and 'indie RPG' have different meanings, we can use those labels to convey useful information, and can help to ensure that players/groups more easily find games which they will enjoy. These days, I can usually trust the back cover or an online summary to convey the information necessary to let me know whether I would be able to play the game or not. Non-GM player-authorship is unique enough of a feature that it usually warrants a mention, at the very least.

Just like anything one is going to be spending a significant amount of time and/or money on, one should most certainly do their homework researching such things. That's just being a smart consumer.

I didn't advocate against such distinctions, just that one form isn't subjectively superior to another. It's a matter of taste.
 

Remove ads

Top