A Change of Discussion

[FrogReaver]

Take a look at auto ratings. Let’s say that DPR is the mileage rate of the car. Each car has a mileage rating. But it’s far from the only rating. They also have safety ratings and performance ratings and comfort ratings and so on.

A character is no different. Each has a certain DPR capability. But they also have defense and stealth and utility and charisma and so on.

Is mileage the most important factor when deciding to buy a car? For some people, sure. But not for everyone, clearly. It’s the same with DPR. If that’s the most important factor to a player or to the game the player’s in, then surr that’s what will matter most to them.

How exactly to compare DPR to other factors is tough. HP seems to be the metric to use, but they’re so hard to apply in many instances. How do you decide how many HP it’s worth to pick a lock or to get an NPC to open a gate? I mean, no one converts surviving an accident into a mile amount so they can compare the Saftey rating to the Mileage rating. It seems odd to even think of it that way. They are simply different aspects of the same thing.

Probably better to determine the specific categories in which a character can excel. DPR, Defense, Stealth, Social, and Utility. There are probably others....Support or Teamwork, maybe? Possibly others. Then you can use those categories to determine an overall rating for a character, and then you’ll have a common metric to use to compare characters.

I'm with you in a way. But what are the categories and what falls into those categories and how are they measured?

 

[LordEntrails]

I'm with you in a way. But what are the categories and what falls into those categories and how are they measured?

What do you want them to be?

It really seems that you are trying to put definitive metrics to things that do not have distinct categories or values that can be assigned to them.

But, if it helps your or you derive enjoyment from it. Go for it! I will bow out as I feel I'm acting like a wet blanket

 

[cmad1977]

Anyone who worries about DPR is immediately ejected from my table.

 

[FrogReaver]

Anyone who worries about DPR is immediately ejected from my table.

So what about those that purposefully tank it?

 

[cmad1977]

So what about those that purposefully tank it?

Again... worrying about DPR is silly so... I don’t worry about it. People who fret about DPR are terrible teammates and generally uncreative players who are better suited to either an earlier edition or MMOs.

 

[Satyrn]

So what about those that purposefully tank it?

Ooh. Now I want to play a champion fighter who wears the heaviest armor and carries the biggest shield . . . and fights with a dagger. Well, he carries the dagger, but mostly uses it only after knocking his foe and pinning him to the ground under his shield.

 

[cmad1977]

Ooh. Now I want to play a champion fighter who wears the heaviest armor and carries the biggest shield . . . and fights with a dagger. Well, he carries the dagger, but mostly uses it only after knocking his foe and pinning him to the ground under his shield.

Which I would actually rather love in the party.

 

[Blue]

Here’s a proof of concept:

The ability to pick a lock of some kind is about equivalent to the 2nd level spell Knock.

The 2nd level DPR spells are Cloud of Daggers (4d4 persisting in an area) and Scorching Ray (3 rays that each do 2d6 fire damage). This is roughly 21-22 DPR.

So I conclude Knock is worth about 21 DPR and therefore so is picking a lock.

What has 21 HP? Well, a zombie (CR 1/4, 50 XP) has 22. That’s close enough for me.

So knock is worth 50XP, and so is the ability to pick a lock. A basic lock, then, seems like it is also CR 1/4.

Utility has a value. That value is consistent (albeit not necessarily perfectly) with same-level DPR spell slots.

This breaks own with a lot of utility spells. Charm Person could prevent a CR 1/4 fight - or a battle with a bunch of high CR creatures. But a sequence of Persuasion and Insight checks could have the same result.

Fly could get one person past a 40' fall - or a 500' fall. Or allow someone to anchor a rope to get the whole party past the same. Or allow the barbarian to get into melee with flying-only opponents of various CRs.

 

[Blue]

Again... worrying about DPR is silly so... I don’t worry about it. People who fret about DPR are terrible teammates and generally uncreative players who are better suited to either an earlier edition or MMOs.

Judge much? One group I played with was among the best roleplayers I knew, were very creative, and had spent so much time playing that system mastery was second nature and every character was well optimized both individually and with what helped the party much.

Or an alternate example - I recently joined an existing group, and I gave a lot of thought to what the group already had and what they didn't. Both not to step on someone's toes, but also to shore up any weaknesses in the party. I was considering roles in combat and non-combat and how best to fill them - and if the party had needed more strikers or more people to deal with hordes of foes, damage output would have been something I would have focused on. (As it was, I went bard. They had no real social characters, on outside a life cleric no one focusing on buffing/debuffing.)

 

[Ancalagon]

An important consideration is "combat as war" vs "combat as a sport".

When you are doing combat as war, character abilities that allow the party to manipulate situations to their advantage become extremely important. It's not just about doing the most damage, it's about creating the most advantageous situation for you, and the worse for the enemy. Can you get the angry bear to go rampage in the goblin camp? Can you take out the sentries quietly? Can you poison the orcs' food? Can you push the golem into a hole? Can you blind the enemy archers somehow? Could you cut their bow strings? etc etc.