A clue on the Charm attack?

[Bold or Stupid]

Okay we know that succubi get a two part charming kiss, and that the first part makes the target interpose themselves and not attack the succubus. the first part has no clue to what is does other than the charm descriptor. However way back in the day Mike Mearls wrote an article on making over the Beholder he had this to say on the charm eyes effect.

Charm Person: This might seem inappropriate given the beholder's CR, but it helps explain away a beholder's lower level allies and is a useful tool for creating the story around a beholder. With ten different eye rays on a beholder, there's space for ones useful outside of a fight. Let's also add a version that allows this ray to stun a target with a failed Will save. During a fight, the beholder uses this ray to knock a target senseless. Otherwise, it uses the ray to make friends with potential vassals.

I wonder if the standard effect of a charm will be a daze/stun type effect, maybe preventing movement, which keeps you near the succubus.

 

[Mr. Teapot]

Actually, you seem to have missed the most interesting part of Mearls's comment: charm abilities have different effects in combat and out of combat. So the succubus can potentially control the king of the kingdom without spending her every action dominating him (as dominating is a standard action that lasts one round). That I think is very interesting.

 

[Derren]

The only way how this could be linked to the Charming Kiss ability is either through the Charm keyword (but then the Warlock also gets all this benefits) or when Charming Kiss gets its own special entry and serves as the default for all charm abilities (unlikely).

Don't forget that the Charming Kiss ability doesn't actually charm the target.

 

[The Little Raven]

Don't forget that the Charming Kiss ability doesn't actually charm the target.

Charm Person (3E) causes the target to regard you favorably (attitude is friendly). It didn't allow you to talk someone into doing something suicidal or harmful.

Charming Kiss (4E) causes the target to regard you favorably. It's further reinforced with the mechanics that the target will not attack you (unless you or an ally attack first) and that the target is willing to put itself in harm's way for you (taking the attack that would hit you).

If Charming Kiss doesn't charm the target, then Charm Person didn't either.

 

[Starbuck_II]

Charm Person (3E) causes the target to regard you favorably (attitude is friendly). It didn't allow you to talk someone into doing something suicidal or harmful.

Charming Kiss (4E) causes the target to regard you favorably. It's further reinforced with the mechanics that the target will not attack you (unless you or an ally attack first) and that the target is willing to put itself in harm's way for you (taking the attack that would hit you).

If Charming Kiss doesn't charm the target, then Charm Person didn't either.

I think what he meant was Dominate , Minor.

See, Charm Person lets you roll a Charisma check each time to command them to do stuff. Basically, gives a weaker version of dominate. Language dependent though, but useful.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Okay we know that succubi get a two part charming kiss, and that the first part makes the target interpose themselves and not attack the succubus. the first part has no clue to what is does other than the charm descriptor.

I don't think the charming kiss effect is such a big mystery... It is pretty much the exact same thing as any touch-attack based spell in 3E. The first attack is a physical attempt to make contact with an unwilling target, and the second attack is attempt to get the actual effect to stick. The only difference is that the second effect would have been a Will saving throw vs. the charm effect in 3E, rather than 4E's attack vs. will defense.

As a whole, I am severely hoping that there is no special effect added on to the charm keyword itself... They have been trying to sell 4E as a game which tries to put everything right in the statblock and minimize page-flipping to figure out how effects work. Having some kind of implied effect for all powers with the charm descriptor, without even designating a general charmed condition, seems like it would be a step backwards compared to everything else.

 

[AZRogue]

Personally I doubt that the Charm tag has anything special attached to it, as much as we've seen it used. It's too bad, though, since that would be neat.

Looking at the Beholder article, though, makes me wonder. What if the Beholder's eye ray only mentions that it knocks people senseless and then, in the descriptive text, says that a Beholder uses this ray on potential vassals (as mentioned in the article).

Clearly, from the article, they intended the ray to have some kind of charm effect on potential vassals, but if it is only mentioned, as above, people would just take that to mean that the Beholder knocks his vassals senseless every once in a while.

If they intend certain powers to have effects that are different outside of combat (and I'm all for that), as the beholder entry states and the succubus entry HINTS at, with the daily Charming Kiss that only effects a person when he stands within 5 feet of the succubus, they need to spell it out.

 

[Voss]

Charm Person (3E) causes the target to regard you favorably (attitude is friendly). It didn't allow you to talk someone into doing something suicidal or harmful.

Charming Kiss (4E) causes the target to regard you favorably. It's further reinforced with the mechanics that the target will not attack you (unless you or an ally attack first) and that the target is willing to put itself in harm's way for you (taking the attack that would hit you).

If Charming Kiss doesn't charm the target, then Charm Person didn't either.

What? No. For one thing, there isn't any cause and effect relationship between 3e's charm person and this charming kiss.

Second, 'causes the target to regard you favorably' is flat out wrong. You could, I suppose, choose to flavor it that way, but what you refer to as 'reinforcement' is actually the sum total of the effect.

 

[Green Knight]

Okay we know that succubi get a two part charming kiss, and that the first part makes the target interpose themselves and not attack the succubus.

That's not quite right. The first part is about making physical contact with the target, and landing a kiss on him. It's the second part which causes the target to stop attacking the Succubus and interpose himself. Just look at the rolls. The first one is AC, while the second is Will Defense.

I wonder if the standard effect of a charm will be a daze/stun type effect, maybe preventing movement, which keeps you near the succubus.

I'm thinking there isn't anything of the sort. Eyebite and Curse of the Dark Dream are both Charm effects, and they don't appear to do anything else.

 

[VannATLC]

Charm keyword will be for negation/defense bonus purposes, not as a basic 'this does that'. (THis seems supported by other keyword usage.

It simply indicative of a mind-altering effect.

We have dominate, that renders people (Apparently) helpless, and then the charm, which enables the Succubus to leverage some level of goal-control around them.