D&D 5E A Compilation of all the Race Changes in Monsters of the Multiverse

Hussar · Jan 31, 2022

Micah Sweet said:
Except that you still have to deal with people's perceptions, and its hard to grok the idea that the tiny halfling can be just as strong as the giant Goliath. The attribute is called Strength, and it directly affects lifting ability. Those are real things in the real world, and is reasonable to assume a person seeing those things is going to make certain, entirely reasonable assumptions. If the designers don't explain somehow that what's actually going on is not what it looks like, people will see what makes sense to them in the real world and be confused. Even though you clearly think otherwise,, the level of fantasy you're asking for is above and beyond and requires additional explanation.

I'm sorry but the whole "it's above and beyond" seems awfully convenient. There are all sorts of things in the game that people would see that would make sense to them in the real world but would be confused by in the game.

After all, you still haven't explained why a dwarf is a better long jumper and swimmer. Apparently, that's perfectly believable. Or why my thousand year old elf can never be a better fighter than your 19 year old human. Or any of the bajillion other D&Disms that make zero sense.

It's all back to that whole canard we saw in the run up to 4e. We'll believe 6 impossible things before breakfast, but, that seventh one, oh, that's just too much.

Yeah, it's way past time for me to walk away from this. This is just endless going around in circles and is not productive. You folks feel free to keep going. I'm clicking that unsubscribe button.

Aldarc · Jan 31, 2022

Hussar said:
And that would be absolutely true. The GAME of D&D isn't realistic, nor does it simulate anything. You cannot claim that the game simulates things that aren't covered by the mechanics.

That we freeform things like this doesn't actually change anything. By the standard your talking about, every RPG is simulating reality.

That a 3rd grader has a chance of beating the world's strongest man in arm wresting in the game HAS ALWAYS BEEN TRUE. The list of things with a strength modifier shows how unrealistic it actually is. The fact that the greatest long jumper in 5e D&D is a DWARF shows you how unrealistic racial ASI's are.

Any realism that the game has is what you, the player and the DM add in. The game itself sure doesn't. And it never has.

My understanding of GNS is that "simulationism" is that it is far less about simulating any real world notions of "realism," but, rather, it's more about genre/setting simulation. There is a concern for internal consistency, setting interaction, genre versimilitude, etc. but these have more to do with simulating the setting than simulating reality. For example, superhero games as different as Masks, M&M, or Venture City are all meant to help simulate the superhero genre as well as their associated conventions. However, none of these games particularly care one iota about simulating "reality." In some regards, D&D has been somewhat "gamist," likely as @Snarf Zagyg would say can be found described in The Elusive Shift.

Nevertheless, it may be easier to ask in regards to simulationism, what is the "reality" that D&D seeks to simulate? I don't think that it's "reality" or "meat space." By this point in its life, D&D's "Cheesecake Factory" reality (again borrowing Snarf's phrasing) has become its own genre/setting, but one whose menu selection is ever-shifting in response to the changing appetites of its new and/or long-standing customers.

UngeheuerLich · Jan 31, 2022

I think the game makes it easy:
Whenever size matters, apply advantage or disadvantage, or raise the DC appropriately.

Crimson Longinus · Jan 31, 2022

Azzy said:
You're still rolling 3d6, the average is still 10.5.

It's not, if you exclude any results lower than nine.

Crimson Longinus · Jan 31, 2022

Malmuria said:
I’ve played video games where my character walks around with a dozen suits of armor, 30 weapons, and all sorts of miscellaneous equipment like a bunch of full mugs of beer, and it manages to not break immersion. Dnd is a little more realistic in that way, but you still have people with average str scores being able to casually carry 150lbs of equipment all day. And they can fall 50 feet and shake it off over lunch. Everyone is going to have a different point where things start to seem not-realistic, and it would be impossible for the designers to know exactly what that point is given how fantastical the game is overall.

Sure. And what's happening is that for some people the line is being crossed right now, and they're saying that. I'm sure everyone understands that this varies from person to person. And of course from designer perspective it matters whether a significant amount of people care. But I think disassociating mechanics in expense of verisimilitude is an area where they should thread carefully. It is not an unusual area of discomfort for a significant number of people, as evidenced by 4e.

Also. I really wouldn't use video games as comparison. They're not immersive in the same way at all. The strength of tabletop RPGs is that they can portray far more real and immersive world, and if they cannot do that then I have no use for them.

UngeheuerLich · Jan 31, 2022

Crimson Longinus said:
Sure. And what's happening is that for some people the line is being crossed right now, and they're saying that. I'm sure everyone understands that this varies from person to person. And of course from designer perspective it matters whether a significant amount of people care. But I think disassociating mechanics in expense of verisimilitude is an area where they should thread carefully. It is not an unusual area of discomfort for a significant number of people, as evidenced by 4e.

Also. I really wouldn't use video games as comparison. They're not immersive in the same way at all. The strength of tabletop RPGs is that they can portray far more real and immersive world, and if they cannot do that then I have no use for them.

After you assigned your scores in character creation, you won't question it any further. It is quite a big difference to 4e where versimilitude was broken constantly while you were playing. I'd wager the halfling entry in the MM will still have them with low str and high dex, while the goliath or half orc will have 16 to 18 str.
In 3e terms, you would derive a +6 to 8 bonus to strength. A +2 bonus would in no way help.
And in 4e they already removed penalties for stats and none cared (ok, I did for a while...) that now halflings can be as strong as humans. Removing the bonuses is just the logical continuation of that line of thought.

UngeheuerLich · Jan 31, 2022

Crimson Longinus said:
It's not, if you exclude any results lower than nine.

I guess if you look over all characters.
If you however only look at fighters who also had a minimum score of 9 (and all incentives to have higher values), you will have the same ability spread for halflings and halforcs.

Cadence · Jan 31, 2022

Azzy said:
You're still rolling 3d6, the average is still 10.5.

Just so I'm clear. Your claim is that if players roll 3d6 in order, and choose a class based on what they qualify for, the average Constitution for the Dwarves will be 10.5, even though they have a minimum of 9 required to choose to be a Dwarf?