D&D 5E A Compilation of all the Race Changes in Monsters of the Multiverse

Mordhau · Feb 1, 2022

UngeheuerLich said:
No. They are not other races. We need a sample of what other traits of races might also affect your decision. Otherwise you won´t be able to assess how important stat bonuses are as an independant factor.

It would be interesting sure, but not really relevant to the point I was making.

UngeheuerLich · Feb 1, 2022

Mordhau said:
It would be interesting sure, but not really relevant to the point I was making.

Maybe your exact point eluded me.
I thought your point was attribute bonuses drive people to match certain races with classes.
I think asking if other factors might be more important for that decision is in order. Couldn´t it be that people match halflings with rogues because of depiction in stories, in older D&D and maybe other skills like "naturally stealthy"?

Mordhau · Feb 1, 2022

UngeheuerLich said:
Maybe your exact point eluded me.
I thought your point was attribute bonuses drive people to match certain races with classes.
I think asking if other factors might be more important for that decision is in order. Couldn´t it be that people match halflings with rogues because of depiction in stories, in older D&D and maybe other skills like "naturally stealthy"?

No as I said in my first reply Race/Class synergies drive people toward certain race class combinations.

As I said originally. Where the clusters are most noticeable is where these synergies are strongeest (Firbolg Druids, Half-Orc and Goliath Barbarians). These are precisely the cases where there is more than just ASIs involved - other traits, fluff etc.

You can't entirely separate the fluff from the mechanics. Half-Orcs have Savage Attacks which synergises with a hard hitting melee character with a big weapon. (And is useless for a Wizard). However, for a new player, the mere mechanics may not be clear. The fluff about the Half-Orcs helps them understand the synergy built in the mechanics.

Goliaths are Barbarians not just because all their features emphasise Strength (and mostly work better if the PC has a high Strength) but also because their fluff gives practically nothing to help a player know how they should play a Goliath as anything other than a Barbarian (or possibly a Fighter). They're extremely, physical hardy and athletically competitive - so a Goliath wizard is not just playing against type mechanically (Powerful Build is not impressive if your Strength is 8 or 10, Natural Athlete may be handy, but not particularly reliable either, Stone's Endurance may be useful, but generally you're hoping not to use it), but also you're basically making up your whole take on what a Goliath wizard is basically from scratch.

UngeheuerLich · Feb 1, 2022

Mordhau said:
No as I said in my first reply Race/Class synergies drive people toward certain race class combinations.

As I said originally. Where the clusters are most noticeable is where these synergies are strongeest (Firbolg Druids, Half-Orc and Goliath Barbarians). These are precisely the cases where there is more than just ASIs involved - other traits, fluff etc.

Oh, then I misread it.

UngeheuerLich · Feb 1, 2022

Mordhau said:
Goliaths are Barbarians not just because all their features emphasise Strength (and mostly work better if the PC has a high Strength) but also because their fluff gives practically nothing to help a player know how they should play a Goliath as anything other than a Barbarian (or possibly a Fighter). They're extremely, physical hardy and athletically competitive - so a Goliath wizard is not just playing against type mechanically (Powerful Build is not impressive if your Strength is 8 or 10, Natural Athlete may be handy, but not particularly reliable either, Stone's Endurance may be useful, but generally you're hoping not to use it), but also you're basically making up your whole take on what a Goliath wizard is basically from scratch.

Actually I have played a goliath bard and I was already thinking about the goliath wizard, even with unfavourable stats (for the wizard at least).
I thought stone´s endurance is worth a lot for a caster to keep up concentration and I do see astrologers and wise people among them.
Such combinations do fascinate me and I would probably alwas try to make use of the big strength score.

Mordhau · Feb 1, 2022

UngeheuerLich said:
Actually I have played a goliath bard and I was already thinking about the goliath wizard, even with unfavourable stats (for the wizard at least).
I thought stone´s endurance is worth a lot for a caster to keep up concentration and I do see astrologers and wise people among them.
Such combinations do fascinate me and I would probably alwas try to make use of the big strength score.

Yeah. But given you're posting here, I suspect you're not a new player.

I think a lot of these longstanding design elements are there to keep things simple and clear for new players.

I'm reminded of Monte Cook's much misunderstood Ivory Tower article where he argued that one of the big flaws in 3e was building a lot of mechanical synergies into the game and then leaving the players to find them for themselves, rather than signalling them clearly.

UngeheuerLich · Feb 1, 2022

Mordhau said:
Yeah. But given you're posting here, I suspect you're not a new player.

I think a lot of these longstanding design elements are there to keep things simple and clear for new players.

I'm reminded of Monte Cook's much misunderstood Ivory Tower article where he argued that one of the big flaws in 3e was building a lot of mechanical synergies into the game and then leaving the players to find them for themselves, rather than signalling them clearly.

I think 5e manages very well signaling good combos. And ithout ASI youl will always find useful abilities when chosing your race/class combination.

Even in 3.5, a halfling fighter was decent, not because they were the heaviest hitter, but because they were also quite good at doing rogue things.