A couple abilities in Martial Power seem WAY too good...

[KarinsDad]

That +1 to hit probably factors in once or less a combat. With a warlord it might be more. Lack of hit points might factor in one in every 10 combats for him.

I don't buy this assessment. In my experience, if PCs start getting bloodied, the Leader(s) typically starts healing them (situation depending).

A PC who takes longer to get bloodied or does not get bloodied in an encounter really doesn't get any attention from the Leader until later in the encounter or even after a short rest. That "lack of hit point" damage would factor in nearly every encounter.

I cannot imagine that your group plays this much differently. It just doesn't make sense.

Sure, the BRV Fighter can still get bloodied. But, this has got to happen later in an encounter on average compared to an everything else the same FWT Fighter.

A few other posters have said BRV is clearly better. I fail to see how its clearly better for our party. Maybe some days a little better, some a little worse.

The math doesn't seem to support this POV.

One could have a party of 4 BRV Fighters and they would do just fine because they would rarely need a Leader. An occasional Second Wind or possibly a potion of healing would often do them just fine.

The same cannot be said of a party of 4 FWT Fighters.


But, the proof is in the pudding. Take two identical Fighters with CON 14 and with BRV and FWT being the only difference and run them through a dozen outnumbered by 2 on 1 encounters each and see who survives.

 

[Nymrohd]

The one combo that seemed rather ridiculous to me was a Horizon Walker/Warmaster. Essentially you get an additional move action every round and give an extra action to an ally within 5 squares every round . Sure only doable at level 30 but still seems crazy. Still after the planar epic destinies I am considering the point that at level 30, players should be allowed insane things at will.

 

[Iron Sky]

My rule is, anything that isn't broken until level 30 isn't broken.

 

[keterys]

On the BRV front... my fighter has never been in danger of falling down, not even once. I considered switching to BRV, but +1 attack has just been more useful.

That said, I do think BRV is poorly designed due to minions and certain other monsters and encounters. Overpowered I don't know.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

On the BRV front... my fighter has never been in danger of falling down, not even once. I considered switching to BRV, but +1 attack has just been more useful.

I think some of that has to do with how the DM runs things. In my game, our DM never goes against my marks. So basically, if I'm in the way and mark someone, he attacks me. There won't be an OA or a CC to get around me, he'll just focus on me. And then he'll get another monster or two to focus on me. And then if those guys are having a bit of trouble taking me down he might have a ranged attacker start shooting me.

Obviously, this is the sort of onslaught that's difficult to stand up to. Were I a BRV Fighter though, I would have a much easier time because I would getting 3 THP for every one of those hits with my current stats. So over the course of a combat, assuming I'm getting hit twice a round (50% chance per attack), for 5-10 rounds means that on average I'd be soaking up about 15-30 hitpoints worth of damage with my THP. That's probably a bit on the low end...but there you go.

15-30 damage equates to 1-2 Healing Words. It's also probably more than the extra damage I'll be doing with that +1. Since we're talking 5-10 rounds, and I don't have a lot of multi-target powers yet (which means about 1 attack per round) so that means on average it's every 2-4 combats that the +1 comes into play. Multiply 2-4 combats by that 15-30 damage (avg of 22.5) and we get between 45 and 90 HP worth of damage I would've soaked up with the BRV ability. And that's with only a 16 CON Dragonborn...it would be a lot worse if I actually optimized for getting my THP as high as possible.

 

[dvvega]

This BRV argument is silly. One DM may make the BRV useless, another makes it overpowered, just by playing differently.

And if you want to go and blame people for the "problems" or power-creep ... blame the play testers who should have made all these observations themselves, not the game company.

D

 

[Nymrohd]

My take on BRV:

Each time an enemy you have marked hits you with a melee or close attack . . .
and
Replace third paragraph with: When an enemy hits you with a melee or close attack, you gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls and damage rolls with melee and close weapon attacks against that target until the end of your next turn, if you are wielding an axe, a hammer, a mace, or a pick and wearing light armor or chainmail.

 

[Don Incognito]

The one combo that seemed rather ridiculous to me was a Horizon Walker/Warmaster. Essentially you get an additional move action every round and give an extra action to an ally within 5 squares every round . Sure only doable at level 30 but still seems crazy. Still after the planar epic destinies I am considering the point that at level 30, players should be allowed insane things at will.

You can only use one action point per encounter. The horizon walker makes using that point to take a move action more attractive because basically you can do that EVERY encounter in a day.

 

[Regicide]

This BRV argument is silly. One DM may make the BRV useless, another makes it overpowered, just by playing differently.

One DM's play style may make it useless, nine hundred and ninety nine will make it overpowered. Because it's overpowered.

And if you want to go and blame people for the "problems" or power-creep ... blame the play testers who should have made all these observations themselves, not the game company.

Putting out balanced books doesn't sell as well as putting out books that are slightly more powerful than previous books. And that doesn't sell as well as putting out completely off the hizzy books that get errated later to be only slightly more powerful after they've flown off the shelves.

 

[Nymrohd]

You can only use one action point per encounter. The horizon walker makes using that point to take a move action more attractive because basically you can do that EVERY encounter in a day.

That is where warmaster comes in. Tactical genius removes that limit and shock and awe means whenever you use an action point one ally gets an extra action as well. And add Martial Mastery to that for endless encounter powers.