A couple abilities in Martial Power seem WAY too good...

[Doctor Proctor]

As the poster noted though, he had that exact build as a FWT Fighter and only changed the class feature when MP came out. In other words, he didn't sacrifice anything to get BRV here. He's just getting a massive boon for doing so.

 

[Prism]

As the poster noted though, he had that exact build as a FWT Fighter and only changed the class feature when MP came out. In other words, he didn't sacrifice anything to get BRV here. He's just getting a massive boon for doing so.

This is a good point. For a high STR and CON fighter then battlerager is probably a better option. Maybe thats a good thing - to promote this style of fighter - because without it, the STR/CON fighter is hard to pull off. Before the release of Martial Power I reckon the CON fighter was the weakest of the three, with WIS being the strongest. So is battlerager a fix for a build that was arguably weaker or is it really OTT

If I was to play a CON fighter I'd probably choose battlerager, but then I probably wouldn't choose to play a CON fighter at all

 

[Doctor Proctor]

This is a good point. For a high STR and CON fighter then battlerager is probably a better option. Maybe thats a good thing - to promote this style of fighter - because without it, the STR/CON fighter is hard to pull off. Before the release of Martial Power I reckon the CON fighter was the weakest of the three, with WIS being the strongest. So is battlerager a fix for a build that was arguably weaker or is it really OTT

If I was to play a CON fighter I'd probably choose battlerager, but then I probably wouldn't choose to play a CON fighter at all

That's your opinion that it's a weaker build though. At my table, your high WIS Fighter probably wouldn't be that great, and that's because my DM never provokes OA's or CC's.

The problem though is that it shouldn't be something like "STR/CON = BRV", both builds should be equally viable options.

 

[KarinsDad]

Assuming the fight lasts more than 6-7 rounds and the fighter would fall unconsious in that time without the temporary hits. Unless/until that happens the WT fighter is ahead

Not exactly. The FWT Fighter is only (somewhat) ahead 1 swing in 20. The other 19 swings, the FWT fighter is behind. He is behind not only because the BRV Fighter takes fewer points of damage during the timeframe of those 19 swings, but because of the party synergies those fewer points of damage promote 95% of the time.

For example, the party Leader can heal a different PC than the Fighter in many encounters. It's not just the Fighter who gains, the PC Striker or Controller or Leader will go unconscious less often over the course of a campaign due to the fact that the Leader will often have at least one more heal power to use on someone else during an encounter.

Another example, Fighters get ganged up on explicitly due to their role. They are sticky and that very stickiness often forces enemies to concentrate their attacks on the Fighter. If the melee NPCs (the majority of monsters in the game system) ignore the Fighter, then there is typically a penalty for doing so (such as Combat Challenge or Combat Superiority).

The BRV Fighter with the exact same abilities, stats, etc. as the FWT Fighter should provoke the same number of attacks. The monsters do not know that the BRV Fighter is less vulnerable and even if they did, they would still provoke OAs for ignoring him. So by definition, these two similar Fighters should have the BRV Fighter using less healing surges than the FWT Fighter. That means that the party doesn't need to stop for the day due to the Fighter running out of healing surges as often as they would otherwise. Sure, the Fighter is not the only PC that can cause an extended rest due to lack of Healing Surges, but he is one of the primary PCs to have that occur, precisely due to his role.

 

[chaotix42]

That's your opinion that it's a weaker build though. At my table, your high WIS Fighter probably wouldn't be that great, and that's because my DM never provokes OA's or CC's.

The problem though is that it shouldn't be something like "STR/CON = BRV", both builds should be equally viable options.

Hehe, as a DM I provoke OAs all the time to get at those soft PCs...

I was pretty impressed with the Str/Con dwarf fighter right from the beginning. His 3rd highest stat is Wis which helps keep his Will up, and he uses a heavy shield; thus, his lowest defense is Ref, but as a long-time D&D fighter he's used to that. He has a ton of hit points and surges, and with dwarven scale mail and the various temporary hit point/ignore damage utility powers he's been one tough dude from 1st to 12th. BRV made him a truly unstoppable tank!

With a craghammer & Brash Strike he pumps out more damage than ever, too.

 

[KarinsDad]

Hehe, as a DM I provoke OAs all the time to get at those soft PCs...

Our DM does not do that too often.

I guess it depends on whether the DM thinks that the role of the Defender is more to contain enemies and protect his allies, or whether the DM thinks that the role of the Defender is more to punish his enemies for ignoring him.

I lean towards the former definition, but both can occur in the game.


I think if I played a Defender, I would have more fun slowing enemies and protecting my friends than I would hitting a lot of enemies and seeing my friends toasted. JMO though.

 

[Mengu]

I think if I played a Defender, I would have more fun slowing enemies and protecting my friends than I would hitting a lot of enemies and seeing my friends toasted. JMO though.

When I DM, I rarely provoke opportunity attacks, against a fighter. It feels like losing your movement action and getting smacked for nothing. I only take the chance if the monster was intending to run. However I do occasionally trigger combat challenge attacks if shifting or attacking another target gives me an advantage like being able to flank, or get more targets under a close blast.

 

[UltimaGabe]

The game I DM has a 12th lvl dwarf fighter with 20 Str, 20 Con, and 15 Wis. His Int/Dex is low but he uses a heavy shield to make up for it. So no, this high Con fighter is not sacrificing Str or Wis.

He started as a Weapon Talent fighter, then switched to BRV when MP came out. He didn't change a thing except the class feature, and even kept his scale mail. BRV made his fighter way better than it was before. He lost +1 to hit and gained insane amounts of survivability. In the few sessions he was a BRV that +1 to hit mattered only once or twice.

This is exactly what I'm looking for. Someone who's got experience with dealing with both types of fighter- in exactly the same situation. As this DM said, and as I'm sure many others would see in his situation, two identical fighters (except one with BRV and one with Weapon Talent) end up far apart from each other in effectiveness.

Assuming the fight lasts more than 6-7 rounds and the fighter would fall unconsious in that time without the temporary hits. Unless/until that happens the WT fighter is ahead

To be perfectly honest, you've given me no reason to listen to you. All you've done is make poor comparisons, sweeping generalizations, and examples that don't quite add up. It doesn't sound to me like you've actually dealt with a Weapon Talent Fighter and a BRV Fighter in similar situations. Even if the WT Fighter wasn't behind ahead a few rounds in (which he is, since he's down many, MANY more hit points and/or healing surges by this point), you can't claim that hitting one more time every twenty attacks puts him "ahead". How many times did he miss by 1 during those 6-7 rounds? Maybe once? Well, add up how many THP the BRV fighter went through during those rounds, and how many healing surges or healing words or whatever he would have saved.

You aren't giving any practical references to back up your statements. Sweeping generalizations ftl.

 

[chaotix42]

Our DM does not do that too often.

I guess it depends on whether the DM thinks that the role of the Defender is more to contain enemies and protect his allies, or whether the DM thinks that the role of the Defender is more to punish his enemies for ignoring him.

I lean towards the former definition, but both can occur in the game.

Well I like to give all of the defender's class features some action. The fighter locked down a troll for the entire battle on Thursday, but the other one got away - not without getting an imm. reaction slap from the fighter though! And sometimes I'll ignore the paladin's challenge to attack the annoying rogue - I get the satisfaction of hitting a halfling and the paladin gets to do some extra damage.

I think if I played a Defender, I would have more fun slowing enemies and protecting my friends than I would hitting a lot of enemies and seeing my friends toasted. JMO though.

The fighter & paladin keep all sorts of trouble away from the squishies on a consistent basis. Sometimes my monsters have to man up and make some squishies pay, defender or not. I ain't afraid of OAs! ~duhduh duhduh duhduh duh-duh-duhduhduh~

 

[Prism]

It doesn't sound to me like you've actually dealt with a Weapon Talent Fighter and a BRV Fighter in similar situations.

You are right i haven't. I have seen a WTF from 1st to 7th. He has never gone down in combat. He rarely runs out of surges first. He heals himself. He has 14 con. He has no use for even more hit points from BRV. He has had no wish to change his build

How many times did he miss by 1 during those 6-7 rounds? Maybe once? Well, add up how many THP the BRV fighter went through during those rounds, and how many healing surges or healing words or whatever he would have saved.

That +1 to hit probably factors in once or less a combat. With a warlord it might be more. Lack of hit points might factor in one in every 10 combats for him. it doesn't matter how many surges he saves. He has them to spare

Its all very situational. I'm just giving an example of why we don't need or want a BRV in our party. The DM plays the monsters fairly aggressively. The brutes go for the fighter to tie him down. The heavy hitters and ranged attacks target the rest of the party. This may explain why its rarely the fighter who goes down in our case

A few other posters have said BRV is clearly better. I fail to see how its clearly better for our party. Maybe some days a little better, some a little worse.