A couple abilities in Martial Power seem WAY too good...

[Obryn]

The problem with this is that a single minion is still not a threat at all. The Fighter will use an attack power nearly every round and nearly always have full temp hit points. The minion can never get through.

Should a single minion be a threat? Honestly?

I don't think so...

I do have an issue with BRV fighters being immune even to hordes of minions, but if a single minion poses a significant challenge, I think something has gone wrong, rather than right.

-O

 

[SabreCat]

Should a single minion be a threat? Honestly?

Reading charitably, I believe all that was meant by that was "a minion should be able to damage a BRV fighter". Not that the BRV fighter, or any fighter or PC for that matter, should have to be afraid of it or something.

 

[Sunglare]

I don't see what the big deal is with BRV. It's not like players don't have other ways of obtaining Temp HP's. The Paladin in the game i'm running always has temp HP's from his bolstering strike and the Warlord once in awhile gives a big chunk of Temp HP to the whole party not to mention everytime a minion dies the warlock has temp HP. All these temp HP flying around and I have no problem dropping a PC now and again.
it doesn't matter if the BRV has a lot of surges left because if the rest of the party is taking a beating then they will have to rest anyways.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Reading charitably, I believe all that was meant by that was "a minion should be able to damage a BRV fighter". Not that the BRV fighter, or any fighter or PC for that matter, should have to be afraid of it or something.

Exactly. Because if a single minion cannot damage the BRV Fighter, then a whole horde of them hitting 100% of the time can't either. Because of the fixed damage that they deal, once the BRV's THP passes that number they essentially can't touch him...at least not in melee.

He was looking for a fix that makes them a threat in the sense that if they can even do some damage to a BRV Fighter, then he can be overwhelmed by an army of minions or low damage output monsters. ie- He's no longer invincible against certain things.

Or, if you would prefer some math. Assume you have a Dwarf with 18 CON and the Stoneblood feat. He gains 6 THP each time he's hit in melee. If a minion then does 5 damage on a hit, it's impossible for that lone minion to damage him. Which also means that if you have a line 1,000 minions long that each will fight the BRV Fighter in turn, he will survive with hardly a scratch (essentially just missing 5 HP from the first guy). No other PC can do that. NONE.

Now, it's an unrealistic scenario obviously, but it's too illustrate a point that the BRV is the only build that can actually be immune to certain monsters. Karin's Dad was just looking to fix that, and I think he did a good job.

 

[chaotix42]

I don't see what the big deal is with BRV. It's not like players don't have other ways of obtaining Temp HP's. The Paladin in the game i'm running always has temp HP's from his bolstering strike and the Warlord once in awhile gives a big chunk of Temp HP to the whole party not to mention everytime a minion dies the warlock has temp HP. All these temp HP flying around and I have no problem dropping a PC now and again.

None of these characters are getting temporary hit points as frequently as a BRV fighter. Every time you attack him with a melee or close attack the fighter gets his hp. The paladin is only getting them 1/round with his strike - hit him three times and his hp will cushion 1 blow, and maybe take a bit off of the 2nd. The fighter cushions EVERY blow, no matter what he's doing. There are nowhere near as many "temp hp flying around" with a paladin or warlock.

it doesn't matter if the BRV has a lot of surges left because if the rest of the party is taking a beating then they will have to rest anyways.

I like to challenge the entire party equally. If the day ends because 1 guy is out of surges and some other PCs are still OK to adventure I feel I've failed as a monster... err, DM.

 

[lgw]

Well, the point about the more extreme damage reductions of a BRV Fighter is that he loses out on many opportunities - not just the +1 from FWT (which is already big in itself, no question). He has to spend feats and attributes on that, which will hamper him in the one or the other way of performing well as a defender. It's always weighing options against each other, and finding the correct middle ground for your character, group and adventures is the art.
The second thing many seem to underestimate is the impact of status effects, which really hurt combatants, no matter if they take damage or not. And the BRV fighter is definately more vulnaralbe to those, besides his reduced tactical options due hitting worse. One of the deadliest encounters I threw at my party was a simple same level Encounter with four harpies at some serpentines - one (upleveled) controller, three soldiers - look it up at p154 MM. And the fighter wasn't the problem, by far, and he was already built with a focus on disrupting the enemies - and still he rarely was the on to drop in a fight.

Or, in a nutshell, take the old MMORPG wisdom:
* If the healer (leader) drops, it's the tank's (defender's) fault.
* If the tank (defender) drops, it's the healer's (leader's) fault.
* If the DPS (striker / controller) drops, it's their own fault.
Blame me for drawing onto MMOs, but despite the many diferences in detail, the saying often true in the same way for tactical combats like D&D 4th offers.

 

[Sunglare]

None of these characters are getting temporary hit points as frequently as a BRV fighter. Every time you attack him with a melee or close attack the fighter gets his hp. The paladin is only getting them 1/round with his strike - hit him three times and his hp will cushion 1 blow, and maybe take a bit off of the 2nd. The fighter cushions EVERY blow, no matter what he's doing. There are nowhere near as many "temp hp flying around" with a paladin or warlock.

I like to challenge the entire party equally. If the day ends because 1 guy is out of surges and some other PCs are still OK to adventure I feel I've failed as a monster... err, DM.

I see no reason for said creatures not to switch to range attacks if their melee is not working (goblin sharpshooters for the win). Most minions have some form of range attack that has the same attack and damage as their melee. Also if the creatures should notice how tough it is to take down the defender and will just focus their attacks on another PC.

I would rather play a high Str/Wis TWF fighter with feats that incease my bonus to hit with OA's. A true sticky warrior.
A BRV in my group would just be mocked for being usless. "Oh boy lots of Temp HP's now do something that actually helps us." Face it, if you are going for the high Con BRV then you are sacraficing Str and Wis.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Well, the point about the more extreme damage reductions of a BRV Fighter is that he loses out on many opportunities - not just the +1 from FWT (which is already big in itself, no question). He has to spend feats and attributes on that, which will hamper him in the one or the other way of performing well as a defender. It's always weighing options against each other, and finding the correct middle ground for your character, group and adventures is the art.

Again though, this is not necessarily true. My STR/CON Dragonborn Fighter in Scale with a Heavy Shield can take the BRV feature and he will be exactly the same in every respect except that he will gain 3 THP when hit and will have an Attack Bonus one point lower. Furthermore, the +1 won't increase over time, but the THP will. Granted, that could be explained away as the +1 always being useful versus the THP needing to increase in order to match the enemy's increase in damage, but it's still a rather steep tradeoff.

While there is more reason to go with the STR/CON build due to the BRV feature, there are still reasons to use it without that feature. For Dragonborn, it's a very powerful combo because it allows you to do more damage with Dragonbreath and get some great bonuses out of the Inner Dragon Path and the other Dragonborn features like the +CON mod to surge value. Barring that though, there's still the Iron Vanguard PP, which adds CON damage to push/prone attacks.

 

[lgw]

Again though, this is not necessarily true. My STR/CON Dragonborn Fighter in Scale with a Heavy Shield can take the BRV feature and he will be exactly the same in every respect except that he will gain 3 THP when hit and will have an Attack Bonus one point lower. Furthermore, the +1 won't increase over time, but the THP will. Granted, that could be explained away as the +1 always being useful versus the THP needing to increase in order to match the enemy's increase in damage, but it's still a rather steep tradeoff.

First we're talking not about an extremely focused BRV, which many people still do.
But yes, your objection is justified. However a +1 to hit is extremely valueable and rare in 4th edition. The Fighter FWT is the only general way (pre Kensai Paragon) available at all, that does not come as a tradeoff. And the +1 is not only important for the pure damage, but even much more for the many effects attacks carry.

While there is more reason to go with the STR/CON build due to the BRV feature, there are still reasons to use it without that feature. For Dragonborn, it's a very powerful combo because it allows you to do more damage with Dragonbreath and get some great bonuses out of the Inner Dragon Path and the other Dragonborn features like the +CON mod to surge value. Barring that though, there's still the Iron Vanguard PP, which adds CON damage to push/prone attacks.

A STR / CON build has definate advantages, especially for a Dragonborn.
But you will suffer on your defense scores and and the Combat Surperiority class feature, which is by far the most powerful feature the fighter offers. You will have problems qualifying for some feats, although that's a bit more dependable on your build.

 

[KarinsDad]

First we're talking not about an extremely focused BRV, which many people still do.
But yes, your objection is justified. However a +1 to hit is extremely valueable and rare in 4th edition.

Yes, +1 to hit is rare.

But what is more rare is a PC that misses 1 time more per 20 rounds, but easily lasts twice as many rounds.

So, if a normal Fighter lasts 20 rounds and hits 11 times in 20 rounds and is then unconscious, the BRV Fighter lasts 40 rounds and hits 20 times in 40 rounds. He is -1 to hit, but he hits for many rounds after the other Fighter is unconscious.

This is not just a defensive gain, it is a HUGE offensive gain. Magnitudes larger than +1 to hit.

The rarity of +1 to hit states nothing with regard to game balance. Giving it up means virtually nothing here due to the massive defensive and offensive gain.