A couple abilities in Martial Power seem WAY too good...

[KarinsDad]

I don't know that I agree with that. While yes, non-melee attacks are the BRV's weakness, they don't really handle them any better or worse than the FWT Fighter. The BRV Fighter is perfectly free to take heavier armor, which will make them equally well equipped for non-ranged combat, he just misses out on a couple points of damage.

Actually, I think a simple fix is to have the temporary hit points only occur when the BRV Fighter hits, not when he gets hit.

That way, he gets the points every other round (on average), not nearly every round. A group of minions is still a threat, etc.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

+1 to hit isn't so much useful all the time, as useful when you otherwise would have missed by 1. Temporary hit points are useful not only when you would have otherwise fallen or died, but anytime it means you save on spending one or more healing surges.

Just going by intuition here, but I feel BRV has the edge in that particular comparison of utility.

Exactly. THP help as long as you're getting hit. If I make it out of an encounter with 32 HP instead of 42 (my normal total) I'm going to spend a Healing Surge. Gaining THP from BRV might have mitigated that loss of 10 HP entirely, thus saving me a healing surge.

Assuming I get banged up and I have to use my Second Wind, get healed and then use a surge between encounter, that's 3 suges. With BRV though, I might only need 1 or 2 surges, and might've been able to get by with just my Second Wind during the encounter, thus freeing up that heal for someone else.

Actually, I think a simple fix is to have the temporary hit points only occur when the BRV Fighter hits, not when he gets hit.

That way, he gets the points every other round (on average), not nearly every round. A group of minions is still a threat, etc.

The only problem with that though is that it steps on the toes of the Invigorating powers. Plus, it can lead to some funky interactions with multi-target powers...unless you limit it to once per round. In which case, it's basically the same thing as Invigorating powers in every way save being tied to particular abilities.

It might work I guess...but it wold be difficult trying to justify the difference between them.

 

[KarinsDad]

The only problem with that though is that it steps on the toes of the Invigorating powers.

How so? I don't have the books in front of me, but doesn't it already give the temp hit points if the Fighter hits? Maybe I am mis-remembering. Old timer's disease.

Plus, it can lead to some funky interactions with multi-target powers...unless you limit it to once per round.

No need. If you hit with a multi-target power, it replaces the temp hit points multiple times. That doesn't matter. Replace 4 with 4 six times. Ok, the Fighter still has 4 temporary hit points.

In which case, it's basically the same thing as Invigorating powers in every way save being tied to particular abilities.

No, it is different. Invigorating powers would add their temp hit points to any current temp hit points ones. No different than if the source of the temp hit points were the current rule of getting hit.

A non-invigorating power would merely max out temp hit points (no different than if the source of the temp hit points were the current rule of getting hit).

It might work I guess...but it wold be difficult trying to justify the difference between them.

Why would one have to justify anything? They work slightly differently.


But, the main problem I have is that the minion hits for 4 points, removes the current 4 temp hit points, and they immediately get replaced with 4 temp hit points. The frequency is too great and the minion is not a threat at all.

Any change to the system should take that into account (in fact, any new game mechanic should always take all other game mechanics into account). For example, a different change would be to only allow one enemy hit per round to give temp hit points. But, I don't like this because a single minion is still not a threat. Remove 4 temp hit points, add 4 temp hit points, ad infinitum. zzzzzz

Changing it to "to hit" limits it to once per round (even with multi-round attacks) and allows a single minion to be a threat (because the minion can hit twice and sometimes do damage, once to remove temp hit points and once to do damage because the Fighter missed the minion on a given round).

 

[Doctor Proctor]

What I meant is that we have Invigorating Powers that grant THP when you hit with them. Your proposal makes it so that the BRV feature grants THP when you hit a target.

I'm just saying, why even have the different abilities? It would be like having a Rogue class feature that makes every attack that hits Rattling. Why have Rattling powers then?

While I agree in principal with the idea of making it so that BRV Fighters only gain THP when they hit something (which would be harder without FWT, thus adding some balance there), the cat is already out of the bag with Invigorating powers. I guess as a house rule it might work, but I could never see WotC itself make such a change.

Also, doesn't the Barbarian gain his THP on a hit? Or is it some other way?

 

[vic20]

What I meant is that we have Invigorating Powers that grant THP when you hit with them. Your proposal makes it so that the BRV feature grants THP when you hit a target.

I'm just saying, why even have the different abilities? It would be like having a Rogue class feature that makes every attack that hits Rattling. Why have Rattling powers then?

Invigorating attacks would still be the only source of stackable temporary hit points in the game.

 

[Lord Ernie]

Rather than go for 'hit', I'd go with "Whenever the BRV Fighter uses an attack power, he gains THP equal to his CON modifier.". That way, it's once per turn (unless you're using immediate attack powers), doesn't depend on him hitting or missing, and if you use and hit with an Invigorating power, you get extra THP. It also doesn't act like damage reduction as much as the other form does.

Still better than FWT, but not by such a degree.

 

[KarinsDad]

Rather than go for 'hit', I'd go with "Whenever the BRV Fighter uses an attack power, he gains THP equal to his CON modifier.". That way, it's once per turn (unless you're using immediate attack powers), doesn't depend on him hitting or missing, and if you use and hit with an Invigorating power, you get extra THP. It also doesn't act like damage reduction as much as the other form does.

The problem with this is that a single minion is still not a threat at all. The Fighter will use an attack power nearly every round and nearly always have full temp hit points. The minion can never get through.


Another solution is to have the normal "when the Fighter gets hit" rule, but add on it that he regains the temp hit points only if he takes real hit point damage.

That way, it handles DP's invigorating issue (which I don't see as a big deal), it allows a single minion to still be a threat, and it nerfs the power without overdoing it.

BRV Fighter: 33 hit points
Gets hit for 6, now has 27 hit points and 4 temp hit points
Gets hit for 3, now has 27 hit points and 1 temp hit point
Gets hit for 5, now has 23 hit points and 4 temp hit points, etc.

Against a minion, BRV Fighter: 33 hit points
Gets hit for 4, now has 29 hit points and 4 temp hit points
Gets hit for 4, now has 29 hit points and 0 temp hit points
Gets hit for 4, now has 25 hit points and 4 temp hit points, etc.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Another solution is to have the normal "when the Fighter gets hit" rule, but add on it that he regains the temp hit points only if he takes real hit point damage.

That way, it handles DP's invigorating issue (which I don't see as a big deal), it allows a single minion to still be a threat, and it nerfs the power without overdoing it.

BRV Fighter: 33 hit points
Gets hit for 6, now has 27 hit points and 4 temp hit points
Gets hit for 3, now has 27 hit points and 1 temp hit point
Gets hit for 5, now has 23 hit points and 4 temp hit points, etc.

Against a minion, BRV Fighter: 33 hit points
Gets hit for 4, now has 29 hit points and 4 temp hit points
Gets hit for 4, now has 29 hit points and 0 temp hit points
Gets hit for 4, now has 25 hit points and 4 temp hit points, etc.

Now that's one of the better ideas that I've heard. It's something that wouldn't be difficult to errata, and would add a lot of balance to the build. The THP would still act as a buffer, but you wouldn't just be able to out THP someone's damage and then never get hurt.

In fact, I wonder if someone shouldn't post that idea over on WotC's errata board.

 

[KarinsDad]

In fact, I wonder if someone shouldn't post that idea over on WotC's errata board.

Ok, done.

 

[Prism]

+1 to hit isn't so much useful all the time, as useful when you otherwise would have missed by 1. Temporary hit points are useful not only when you would have otherwise fallen or died, but anytime it means you save on spending one or more healing surges.

Just going by intuition here, but I feel BRV has the edge in that particular comparison of utility.

Yeah that pretty much sums it up. In our group the fighter (weapon talent) is rarely the first to run out of healing surges and I can't remember him going down in combat. To many other powers that keep him alive. We have no leader either. We have played to 7th level. So for him the temporary hits would have been pointless. However every fight he rolls a good few attack rolls, a few of which would miss without the +1. Burst attacks are more likely to benefit from this.

For me it depends on the party composition and all sorts of other factors. I wouldn't say one is any better than the other - just different. What I do know in my experience though is having a good WIS, well armoured fighter who hits well and hard is not to be dismissed