A couple abilities in Martial Power seem WAY too good...

[boolean]

Because a brutal rogue could say, carry a light (or heavy) shield in one hand and a parrying dagger in the other, if he really felt like he needed a lot of AC.

This won't work, because the defensive quality only applies if you're wielding a weapon in the other hand as well. (A character could get this benefit with a spiked shield and parrying dagger, but this takes 3 feats: Weapon Proficiency (twice) and Shield Proficiency).

 

[Dan'L]

So.... D&D has lost so much ground to mmorpg's that wotc is branching out into online tools in order to compete(at least, when they get them working), and you think WOTC should incoporate into their new business model ignoring its already dwindling customer base...

No, I think that WOTC should trust their own instincts & the results of actual playing, rather than the knee-jerk fears of one portion of its customer base.

Is the Battlerager hard to bring down? You bet. That just makes him a better Defender. Oh no, look out! The Fighter might actually be competent in his role! Really, do people want the Fighter to always be the bald-headed stepchild of D&D classes?

And balance: is he laying on gobs of damage, too? Probably not, because he's not going to be hitting as much. And if you somehow manage to max out your to-hits, your damage and your gained temp hp, you're probably knuckle dragging in every other ability. Sounds pretty balanced to me. The biggest worry is that this will extend the "grind."

And it sounds like the complaint about Tempest Fighter has little to do with Tempest Figher, and much to do with Double Weapons.

-Dan'L

 

[Mengu]

Is the Battlerager hard to bring down? You bet. That just makes him a better Defender. Oh no, look out! The Fighter might actually be competent in his role! Really, do people want the Fighter to always be the bald-headed stepchild of D&D classes?

We're not comparing defenders to another role here. We're comparing one fighter build to another. I don't see how a weapon talent fighter is as good a defender as a battlerager. And even before MP, I'd say fighters were no stepchild. They are fantastic at what they do. MP turns them into no competition best defenders or almost best strikers, depending on your build.

 

[Saeviomagy]

And balance: is he laying on gobs of damage, too?

Yes, because he's only losing one point of attack bonus.

This is the bit that the defenders of the battlerager don't get. Battleragers only lose ONE POINT OF ATTACK BONUS to get the incredibly powerful benefit of damage reduction, PLUS the only way to stack temporary hitpoints in the entire game.

 

[vic20]

Yes, because he's only losing one point of attack bonus.

This is the bit that the defenders of the battlerager don't get. Battleragers only lose ONE POINT OF ATTACK BONUS to get the incredibly powerful benefit of damage reduction, PLUS the only way to stack temporary hitpoints in the entire game.

Isn't it the case that they are typically losing more than one point of attack bonus? There's the Weapon Talent, but there's also the tendency to invest less into strength (another -1), and potentially a reduction in proficiency, dropping from sword to axe/hammer (another -1).

 

[deleteme123456]

You trade accuracy for damage when you trade swords for axes, and at paragon and up, it typically favors axes because deadly axe is tasty, or you can get hammer rhythm if you want to go that route (more reliable, less peak damage).

 

[Prism]

Yes, because he's only losing one point of attack bonus.

This is the bit that the defenders of the battlerager don't get. Battleragers only lose ONE POINT OF ATTACK BONUS to get the incredibly powerful benefit of damage reduction, PLUS the only way to stack temporary hitpoints in the entire game.

So far in my experience of a weapons talent fighter he doesn't need temporary hit points. He is already hard enough to hit and near impossible to take down. Therefore for him the +1 to hit is far more worthwhile as he does more damage. There aren't that many ways to get an extra +1 to hit. There are loads of ways of staying alive without having temporary hits

 

[Dan'L]

We're not comparing defenders to another role here. We're comparing one fighter build to another. I don't see how a weapon talent fighter is as good a defender as a battlerager. And even before MP, I'd say fighters were no stepchild. They are fantastic at what they do. MP turns them into no competition best defenders or almost best strikers, depending on your build.

1) So the Battlerager build becomes the hardest fighter build to pull down, but perhaps the worst at dealing damage. The Tempest fighter deals perhaps an edge more damage, but trades off for some weaker defenses. A Weapon Fighter builds fall somewhere in the middle, with their own particular strengths and weaknesses balancing between defense and damage depending on the 1- or 2- handed choice. Not really seeing the problem?

2) I'm not sure why Fighters SHOULDN'T be the no-competition best defenders, really. They are the core of the concept. The other defender classes are there to give defender-with-an-edge-of-something-else.

3) There is no way that any of the fighter builds comes anywhere close to the regular average damage outlay of the PHB striker classes. Fighters almost exclusively target AC, and do little more than weapon + ability modifier damage. The strikers often target weaker defenses and get to add their bonus damage dice to really lay on the hurt.

-Dan'L

 

[chaotix42]

.3) There is no way that any of the fighter builds comes anywhere close to the regular average damage outlay of the PHB striker classes. Fighters almost exclusively target AC, and do little more than weapon + ability modifier damage. The strikers often target weaker defenses and get to add their bonus damage dice to really lay on the hurt.

Eh, dwarf fighter with craghammer & shield, Brash Strike, and PA. 12th level, 1d10 + 19, brutal 2. Pretty good!

 

[KarinsDad]

I'm not sure that Battlerage Vigor is that bad, it's the ability to use feats and magic items to improve on it that make it ridiculous.

Compare the class features of a level 1 Battlerage Vigor Dwarven Fighter with Con 18 with a level 1 Dwarven Cleric with Wis 18.

The Fighter gains 4 temporary hit points each time he is hit with melee or close. The Cleric heals that same Fighter 31 points per encounter with Healing Word.

So, the Fighter has to get hit 8 times for Battlerage Vigor to be more potent (hit point-wise) than Healing Word.

If the Fighter is being attacked by non-minions, the opposition only has to average 8 hit points per attack to knock him unconscious.


I don't hear anyone saying that Healing Word is broken.


The real problem for me is magic items (if they exist) and feats that improve upon BRV. Improved Vigor adds 1 to 3, Dwarf Stoneblood adds +1/2 Con mod, and Bloodied Invigoration adds 2 when a Dragonborn is bloodied.

That's too much. At high level, the Dragonborn will get 12 per attack when bloodied and the Dwarf will get 15 per attack all of the time.

My house rule would be to not allow any feats or magic items to improve upon the base number of temporary hit points.

Granted, BRV is better than Fighter Weapon Talent. But, that does not bother me too much. If a PC takes a 16 Str 18 Con Dwarf BRV Fighter, that PC will have two defenses that are bad, etc. Good luck with having a not too balanced PC.