A different kind of halfcaster?

[AlmirEldignor]

I'm thinking of working on a mage-type class that combines aspects of the Warlock and the paladin, a sort of 3/4 caster, basically the spell slots (and rest mechanics) of a normal halfcaster, but the rest of the features sort of like a warlock. I'm unsure what effect, if any, this would have on balance, and I'm curious as to what anyone else might think of such a thing.

 

[steeldragons]

I think you need to tread carefully.

It seems that trying to create such a combination would have the potential to become incredibly overpowered/unbalanced very easily.

You want it to be a half caster + Warlock abilities, which I presume includes invocations. So 'at will magical powers' on top of a full half-caster suit of spells + sub-class [patron & pact] features. That is, already and in itself, more powerful than a warlock.

If you want paladin mixed in there as well, are you increasing the armor and weapon options? On top of half-caster spell slots/known/progression and warlock invocations and at will abilities? Are this arcane-half-caster's spells going to be Prepared like arcane casters (in which case they can accumulate any/every spell you want) or limited selection of known spells to use with your slots like a ranger/sorcerer or "everything known/prepare what you want" like a paladin? Or the warlock table, more spells known than a paladin or ranger but with significantly limited slots to use each short rest?

It sounds like a very easy way to overpower pretty much all of its proposed parts.

I think the idea of a true half-[arcane]caster is great and the game can certainly use one. IMHO, for 5e, the Bard could/should have been that, quite handily. But the developers didn't go that way.

To do what you propose, look at the half-casters we already have. A paladin gets its half-caster slots and progression, +full armor & weapons, + martial stuff (access to a selection of thematic Fighting Styles & Extra Attack) , +Channeling, + extra oath/domain spells, + roughly 6 additional (beyond spells and channeling: Auras/Divine Sense/etc...) misc. magic abilities.

This is the "half-caster" with the magic dial turned way up. The martial dial is also turned all of way up.

The Ranger, as has been complained about from its release, by the book is relatively underpowered as compared to their spiritual half-caster brother-class, the Paladin. Discounting the absolute mess of the Beastmaster for the moment and just using the Hunter...

They too receive half-caster slots/progression, + all weapons, only 2/3rds armor though, + wilderness/exploration traits, + martial stuff (thematic selection of Fighting Styles & Extra Attack), + more martial stuff (their Favored Enemies stuff, special attack & defense moves, Foe Slayer capstone), + roughly 6 misc. magic abilities.

The rangers strike me as the class they did with the martial dial turned mostly up. Similarly, the half-caster nature and progression of the ranger gives them a heavy magic feel/flavor. But both the martial and magic dials are definitely turned down as compared to the paladin.

If you want to wrap in Warlock abilities, the pool includes: cutting armor to 1/3rd (light only), weapons to Simple only, limited slots per rest (vs. half-caster progression), + pact feature, + extra patron-dependent spells known, + invocations, + roughly 6 misc. [4 of which are patron thematic] magical abilities.

This is the class that has the martial dial turned almost to "0" (light armor only, simple weapons) and the magic dial turned way up. Comparable to a Paladin as far as magical abilities, in most respects, as is, but significantly limited in their potential slots. The at-will invocations more than make up for the slack of slots.

I think, if you want an arcane half-caster, then do that. Take a ranger or paladin and make them arcane-based. Swap out [or create new] features for the base and sub-classes, one-for-one to reflavor things to arcane/wizardly magic, as you wish, leave in the martial/combat stuff, and have a legit "half-caster/half-warrior" arcane class.

Kind of, like, an Eldritch Knight or Paladin level of martial, but with the spell-use turned up [to half-caster]. That makes a comparable class. The invocations and other warlock shtick puts it over the "balanced" top unless you are going to severely restrict the martial side of things...in which case then you don't really get that paladin/ranger/"half-caster" vibe.

Look forward to seeing what you come up with. Good luck.

 

[aco175]

Are you thinking of a whole new class, or would this be better as a 3rd level path. It could be more like the fighter path with magic. I do not have my books with me right now.

 

[AlmirEldignor]

I've also been thinking about it since I posted this, and I think for what I wanted I'd end up making some kind of subclass for either warlock or sorcerer, as most of what i wanted was non-short-rest casting with the invocations included. I think if I were to properly attempt it, it would be more of an effort to change the warlock existing system into a slightly expanded slot amounts, just not all max level (probably 2/2/1/1/1 at 10th level, compared to a fullcaster's 4/3/3/3/2 and the warlock's 2 5th level slots) with most of the invocations centered on additional short-rest spells rather than at-will ones.

[EDIT] Also, re-reading through your post and my own, I think that when I posted this I was thinking was more like a class with the features of a fullcaster but slots of a half, so instead of saying warlock and paladin I might have said sorcerer and paladin, basically a halfcaster without just assuming the other half to be martial. I can't think of a great reason to do something like this theme-wise, but mechanically I was jsut considering a halfcaster that didnt have armour or weapons or extra attack or anything, just more caster-y stuff [/EDIT]

 

[Xeviat]

I actually would have liked to have seen the Warlock built as more of a half-caster. The bard too. I've been tempted to put together some markups, give the bard a little more rogue and give the warlock a little more barbarian/fighter.

 

[AlmirEldignor]

To me the Warlock already kind feels like a half-caster, with its "regular" spells being limited to 5th level, but the fact that it finishes scaling them at 10th level makes it more of a multiclass matchmaker than anything by itself I do enjoy the invocations though.


On a side note, I saw the "Call Companion" spell you made for the ranger and druid and really liked it. Would you mind if I added it to the list here so that the players in the games im in can find it easier?

 

[steeldragons]

So, this is what I thought it sounded like at the onset...a "full caster" archetype who has half-caster slots/progression. Namely, "I want to have my cake [warlock invocations and magicky features] and eat it too [half-caster slots and progression]."

A half-caster, as 5e presents it, is a "half" caster, because -somewhat self-evidently- the other "half" is something that is /not/ a caster...a warrior/martial archetype. I suppose one could create a half-caster archetype that the other half is rogue/skill-monkey type just as well.

That isn't what you're after. But, again, wish you luck with it. Happy homebrewing.

 

[TwoSix]

You want it to be a half caster + Warlock abilities, which I presume includes invocations. So 'at will magical powers' on top of a full half-caster suit of spells + sub-class [patron & pact] features. That is, already and in itself, more powerful than a warlock.

So just to make sure I'm clear, you think warlock Pact Magic + Mystic Arcanum is less powerful than Paladin/Ranger casting? That's interesting, I can't say I would agree with that.

 

[steeldragons]

So just to make sure I'm clear, you think warlock Pact Magic + Mystic Arcanum is less powerful than Paladin/Ranger casting? That's interesting, I can't say I would agree with that.

From a spell-casting perspective, I suppose that is so, yes. A Warlock has significantly less spells known than a paladin. Significantly less slots than either a Paladin or Ranger.

The warlock makes up for that deficiency in "magic /spell/ power" by their at will abilities/features (those dictated from their patron choice and/+ their invocations).

To give a character all of the warlock magical bells and whistles + the range of slots and spell choices of a "half-caster" would be more powerful, i.e. "unbalanced", when compared to the existing half-casters we have.

At least, the way I weigh the different pieces/see the character archetypes it would be.

 

[TwoSix]

From a spell-casting perspective, I suppose that is so, yes. A Warlock has significantly less spells known than a paladin. Significantly less slots than either a Paladin or Ranger.

The warlock makes up for that deficiency in "magic /spell/ power" by their at will abilities/features (those dictated from their patron choice and/+ their invocations).

Interesting. I guess we weight the relative value of higher level spells and a short-rest recharge differently.