A few basic rules questions...

[Arravis]

I thought free actions could happen anytime during the round? Or is that anytime during the round on and after your initiative? Or just during your initiative only?

 

[KarinsDad]

You ever watch the an old western were you have two people out in the middle of the street readdy to draw on each other? So we have Guy A and Guy B. Guy A goes for his gun, but Guy B is faster. He's able to react to Guy A's movement and shoot him first.

They aren't reacting to you running throw someone with your spear. They are reacting to the first twitch that gives away your movement.

Yes, but we are not talking about an old western with only two combatants, both of whom are intently studying each other.

We are talking about initiative where some of the characters actually reacting might not even see the first guy who starts it all. Some of these guys might be talking, etc.

I tend to run it this way. The character who declared he is going first does go first. Typically, a player in our group (not his character) says something like "Enough of this, I attack him". Although everyone is ready for combat, he goes first since he decided to initiate it all. Anyone can do this since both sides are just standing around waiting. Just like in most of real life (since most of real life is nothing like an old western).

Everyone else rolls initiative, he just goes first. Nobody is flatfooted since everyone is ready.

This seems to be the easiest system to handle both common sense and initiative.

I dislike nonsensical things like:

A and B on one team. C on the other. A decides to attack. C sees A starting to attack, so he starts to attack. B sees C starting to attack, so he attacks first. Even though B was standing slightly in front of A and couldn't see him make the first move, B actually gets to make the first move.

I prefer, A starts to attack, everyone sees him (for the most part) doing this. At this point, it becomes like an old western.

 

[Crothian]

I thought free actions could happen anytime during the round? Or is that anytime during the round on and after your initiative? Or just during your initiative only?

Your initiative only.

 

[Christian]

I usually treat the first situation exactly like a normal potential surprise situation, except with Bluff versus Sense Motive as the operative skills. The orcs may have been expecting a fight at some point-but maybe not that instant, if the opponents seemed to be parleying. They get a Sense Motive check against Bob's (or whoever is doing the speaking's) Bluff roll. Any orcs that lose don't get any actions during the surprise round ... (This is a good time to let the bard or rogue do the talking. Bob the Fighter probably has a pretty poor Bluff modifier-he's in serious danger of a pre-emptive strike from orcs who know exactly what he's up to.)

BTW, readying a shield is a move-equivalent action. That's talking about a shield that's not even in position on your arm. If you're shield is in place (which it generally will be, except in the case of people who have two-handed weapons ready or somesuch), then you get the shield's bonus to your AC even while flat-footed. You don't need a free action or anything else to take full advantage of it.

 

[coyote6]

If it's a case of Gnuggles the Dwarf saying, "Screw this, I waste him with my crossbow," I'd probably give Gnuggles a surprise round. He might need to make a Bluff vs. Sense Motive check (or possibly some other check -- e.g., Pickpocket vs. Spot to palm a dagger & slip it into someone's throat). If he failed, I'd allow people who beat him to also go in the surprise round. If they go before he does, well, they saw him making his move, & reacted first. Of course, attacking before he actually does might have negative consequences, depending on the situation ("I told you not to attack them! Thanks for starting a war!" "Sorry, your majesty.").

Of course, if Gnuggles didn't already have a weapon in hand or have Quickdraw, he'd spend his surprise round readying a weapon -- he still might get "outdrawn" if someone gets a higher initiative. That seems fine & reasonable to me.

(I might give Gnuggles a circumstance bonus to his initiative roll, too.)

If it's really an armed standoff kind of deal, where everyone has weapons out and is on guard, looking for the slightest excuse to throw down -- I might assume that the situation had already entered "combat time", and let everybody have a Readied or Delayed action. That way, Gnuggles would make his attack, and everybody else would go immediately after (or before, if someone's readied action was "Attack Gnuggles if he twitches").

But I think that kind of situation would be relatively rare. At least with my group -- if there's that much hostility, they probably aren't going to bother with a peaceful meeting anyways.

 

[smetzger]

Example 1:
Roll initiative. However, DM is allowed to apply situational modifiers. I would apply a +4 Init bonus to however was trying to initiate combat first.

 

[Stalker0]

I'd treat it as a readied action scenario. Assume the orc's are taking readied actions, that when one of the humans attacks, they charge or something of that respect.

If you want, make a spot check or something to see if the orcs notice the attack coming. If they due readied actions are taken, and then initiative is rolled. If not, the inital attack counts as the surprise round, and then everyone rolls init.

 

[nsruf]

I tend to run it this way. The character who declared he is going first does go first. Typically, a player in our group (not his character) says something like "Enough of this, I attack him". Although everyone is ready for combat, he goes first since he decided to initiate it all. Anyone can do this since both sides are just standing around waiting. Just like in most of real life (since most of real life is nothing like an old western).

I see your point, but doesn't this cause all PC to take ready actions before combat ("If he makes any suspicious move, I attack!"), although the PHB states that you cannot ready an attack outside of combat and have to use initiative instead? It seems equally absurd to me that the person declaring the first attack can never be intercepted by an alert defender.

I think a better way to handle is is to use the surprise round and exclude the guy unable to see the provoking action - or make spot checks in case of doubt.

 

[KarinsDad]

I see your point, but doesn't this cause all PC to take ready actions before combat ("If he makes any suspicious move, I attack!"), although the PHB states that you cannot ready an attack outside of combat and have to use initiative instead? It seems equally absurd to me that the person declaring the first attack can never be intercepted by an alert defender.

He can be. That is why we have AoO rules, AC, saving throws, etc. You just cannot ready an action to go before the guy attacking (which seems reasonable).

But, turn this around. Why should 5 guys get to charge 60 feet and attack before the guy who wanted to start it gets to fire a loaded crossbow?

Ever?

One possible modification is to have the first guy in a semi-surprise round.

So, he does not get to do a standard or full round action, only a partial action.

And, everyone is not flat footed.

This way, he could roll the highest initiative and get to do a partial action followed by a full action. Oh well.

I just did not want to get into that kind of thing. It was ok with me that he got a full rounds set of actions before anyone else. It is less desirable for him to roll well and get a partial followed by a full.

From my point of view, this is like all combat. It is all happening simultaneously, it is just getting resolved in a given order.

I think a better way to handle is is to use the surprise round and exclude the guy unable to see the provoking action - or make spot checks in case of doubt.

Too much effort. Ditto for sense motive and bluff rolls which are a waste of rules in the book.

Plus, partial actions are inhibiting. Characters with missile weapons and spells have a significant advantage over melee combat characters.

Just roll initiative and move on seems simpler.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I think the situation is covered by the DMG p1

Example: both aware but cannot interact immediately; a party of adventurers comes along a dungeon corridor and hears the laughter of orcs beyond the door ahead. Meanwhile the orc lookout sees the adventurers through a peephole in the door and warns his comerades. The door is closed, so no direct interaction is possible yet. blah, blah blah

Basically you can assume that the initial dialog took place in round 1 but you don't bother rolling initiative yet. When the fight starts, roll initiative but nobody is flatfooted, because they've all been eyeing one another and fingering their weapons, expecting a fight.

Personally the way I handle the order of initiative in these cases is that I start at the person who starts his attack (even if his initiative roll was "2", and then follow on from there... assuming that everyone else was using "glare" and "Talk" actions with their initiatives. I've found this is the easiest way to handle things while still maintaining a comfortable degree of "logic"