A few questions about Chain Spell

[Pax]

I have a few questions my self.

How do you decide how many arcs you get?

In the case of Magic Missile (Which does 5d4+5 damage at 10th level) would hit with five missiles. If it's chained, then what's the damage? 3d4+3? What's half of 5d4+5?

How are spells that are range-touch? Does the person have to be touching?

Magic missile doesn't deal one whack od dice; it deals several individual missiles. Each missile does 1d4+1; it then becomes an issue of, do you round UP or DOWN ... the feat says DOWN. So for Chain Magic Missile, secondary targets would take a net of 0d4+1 damage.

As for how many arcs you get, the feat says so: as many as you have levels.

So that 5-missile Chain Magic Missile generates five 1d4+1 magic missiles, which after impacting, spread out ...let's see, a 7th level caster ... thirty-five 1-point "miniMissiles".

Depending onhow lenient your GM is, you may or may not have to allocate missiles (th initial bigones, and the resultant miniatures) in five-missile groups, IOW, all the big ones at one target, then, 5 points of damage to each of the 7 resultant targets. That, at least, is how I would rule it -- if you split it up, you'd have to surrender the Chain benefits.

Still, to do a net of 5d4+40 damage (among 8 targets) with a magic missile spell is nothing to sneeze at when you're 7th level. Lol. "Magic MIRV" indeed, heh!

[EDIT]
Almost forgot: the T&B Chain Spell metamagic does not work with Touch-range spells. Period; says so right in the feat itself.
[/EDIT]

 

[Xarlen]

I don't understand how you got that. The spell scales in damage. It's like doing it with Flame arrows. If you target them all at someone, it does all the damage to them. Then it chains.

It would be easier just to do as suggested: Divide the roll of 5d4+5 (or whatever number) by 2, and all five missiles from the archs must hit one target, per five. So there's no dividing it up.

Sorry, I don't want to spend a 4th level slot just to hit someone with an MM, then deal a measly five damage all around. Compare that a Ray of Enfeeblement, which would do 1d6+5 points to the initial target, then 1d6+5/2 to the arched targets. Which at the very least would be 3, if the person made the save, and rolled a 1 on the die roll.

 

[Pax]

I don't understand how you got that. The spell scales in damage. It's like doing it with Flame arrows. If you target them all at someone, it does all the damage to them. Then it chains.

It would be easier just to do as suggested: Divide the roll of 5d4+5 (or whatever number) by 2, and all five missiles from the archs must hit one target, per five. So there's no dividing it up.

Sorry, I don't want to spend a 4th level slot just to hit someone with an MM, then deal a measly five damage all around. Compare that a Ray of Enfeeblement, which would do 1d6+5 points to the initial target, then 1d6+5/2 to the arched targets. Which at the very least would be 3, if the person made the save, and rolled a 1 on the die roll.

RTFM.

Seriously, the feat itself defines everything I applied. Read for yourself (emphasis in ALL CAPS is mine):

Chain Spell [Metamagic]
You can cast spells that arc to other targets in addition to the primary target.
Prerequisites: Any other metamagic feat.
Benefit: You can chain any spell that specifies a SINGLE TARGET and has a RANGE GREATER THAN TOUCH. The chained spell affects that target (the primary target) normally, then arcs to a number of secondary targets equal to your level. Each arc affects one secondary target. You choose the seconday targets as you like, but they must all be within 30 feet of the primary target, and no target can be affected more than once. You can affect fewer secondary targets than the maximum.
If the chained spell deals damage, the secondary targets each take HALF AS MANY DICE OF DAMAGE as the primary target (round down) and can attempt Reflex saving throws for half of the secondary damage. For spells that do not deal points of damage, the save DCs against arcing effects are reduced by 4. For example, a 10th-level wizard casts a chained cause fear on a nearby goblin and can specify up to ten secondary targets. The goblin, as primary target, must make a Will save against DC 14, while those affected by the secondary arcs save against DC 10.
A chained spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.

Strictly speaking, Magic Missile cannot be chained, but individual DM's might make an exception IF all the initial missiles target the same, single target. Why?

It's that key line, "that effects a single target" -- magic missile affects "one OR MORE" targets. Slight grey area.

IMO, each missile should be halved (or not) individually. However, even if you insist on halving only the net -- then secondary targets would take 2d4+5 (half of 5d4 is 2.5d4, then round down as the feat instructs). That seems grossly overpowered IMO, as it means (essentially) adding TWICE your caster level in magic missiles which must be sent out to secondary targets. For a 7th level caster, the final net of 19d4+40 is BETTER than a 9th level wizard casting Cone of Cold -- by FAR. And Cone of Cold is a FIRTH level spell ... hence halving each missile. I *might* be inclined to let each missile act as it's own micro-chain, as the secondary targets then only recieve 1hp of damage, making the Chain Magic Missile sort of a "starburst" effect.

As for the Ray of Enfeeblement -- remember, it is not the damage that is halved, it is the DICE which are halved!! Chain Ray of Enfeeblement would do 1d6+5 to the primary target ... and 0d6+5 to each secondary (half of one d6, rounded down, is ZERO d6). Which is 5 points, save for 2. Not 6 points, save for 3.

 

[Xarlen]

I really, really don't like halving the HD fo a single die. Otherwise, that neuters spells to create penny effects, for a Large chunk of +3 for the spell level. For a 4th level slot, with a tiny DC, you can maybe effect people for 2 points of Str damage? That seems a waste of a 4th level spell slot, especially considering that that los of Str will just result in -1 to hit and -1 to damage.

 

[Pax]

I really, really don't like halving the HD fo a single die. Otherwise, that neuters spells to create penny effects, for a Large chunk of +3 for the spell level. For a 4th level slot, with a tiny DC, you can maybe effect people for 2 points of Str damage? That seems a waste of a 4th level spell slot, especially considering that that los of Str will just result in -1 to hit and -1 to damage.

Then Magic Missile simply isn't a good candidate for Chain Spell. Simple enough. Similarly, Fireball isn't a good candidate for Extend Spell, either.

Not every metamagick feat needs to be suitable for every spell. I'm not even certain Magic Missile even CAN be chained; Chain requires "single target" spells only, and Magic Missile specifies "up to five targets" -- there's a conflict right there.

If it were to be allowed, EACH EFFECT should be treated seperately. Since each missile is a seperate effect of the MM spell, they get trated seperately.

Don't like how MM works with Chain Spell? Fine; maximise it instead (poof, 5 missiles at 1d4+1 becomes 25 damage in 5-point packets ... LESS than my NERFED method of chaining MM).

See, that's key. MM doesn't do 5d4+5. It does 1d4+1 ... five times. Each hit is seperate, however, and not grouped together.

As for Ray of Enfeeblement: are you nuts? You hit EIGHT targets, not 1; even on a save, at that stage you're guaranteed to nail them all with a -1 to hit and damage. 1d6+5 STR damage to the primary, and 5 to each of the up to seven the secondaries ... assuming you roll a 1 for the primary, and EVERYone saves, that's 17 strength damage spread among the 8 targets.

If noone saves and you roll a 6, that's 46 strength damage, spread among 8 targets.

If you don't like it, don't use it. The Feat says, half the number of dice dealt, round DOWN. Basically, it's EXACTLY how Chain Lightning came about ... the spell Chain Lightning is basically a permanently-modified Lightning spell, using the Chain Spell metamagic; that spell is obviously where they got the inspiration for the Chain Spell feat.

 

[Thanee]

Flame arrow eithr affects a certai number of arows, period, OR, one target for 4d6 direct damage. The second application is open to use of the Chain Spell feat as presented in T&B; secondary targets wudl take 2d6.

Errr... but Flame Arrow (2nd version) does create one bolt per 4 caster levels, which can but must not be targeted at a single target.

So, if I get 3 bolts and use them all against the same target, does the Chain Spell feat then work for 6d6 secondary damage on (caster level) secondary targets?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Xarlen]

Actually, Extend can't be applied to Fireball. It's an Instantanious spell. But, as it's pointed out, Chain *can* be added to MM. Look at Flame Arrow, which you pointed out Could do it. It can target More, or One person.

 

[Pax]

Actually, Extend can't be applied to Fireball. It's an Instantanious spell. But, as it's pointed out, Chain *can* be added to MM. Look at Flame Arrow, which you pointed out Could do it. It can target More, or One person.

Flame Arrow has two SEPERATE applications.

One is a single-target, 4d6 [fire] damage spell. That canbe Chained just fine.

The other is a +4 apiece "extra [fire] damage for arrows" spell, whcih CANNOT be Chained.

The trick is, if you use the "more" -version- ... the spell is cast slightly differently, and the Chai metamagic just gos away.

MM is *always* "one or more targets" ... technically, it can't be chained ... if you have five missiles, you have five targets, always. Just because all five targets are the same enemy, doesn't make the spell a "single target" spell. The actual act of casting the spell doesn't change, wether you target one person, two people, or five people -- unlike with Flame Arrow, above.

 

[Pax]

Errr... but Flame Arrow (2nd version) does create one bolt per 4 caster levels, which can but must not be targeted at a single target.

So, if I get 3 bolts and use them all against the same target, does the Chain Spell feat then work for 6d6 secondary damage on (caster level) secondary targets?

Bye
Thanee

Pardon, my mistake -- I've not yet used the spell myself, in an actual game. I thought it was one bolt, period.

So in that case ... sorry, taken literally Flame Arrow, TOO, as *technically* a spell Chain Spell cannot affect, period.

OTOH, I personally *would* allow it -- treating each bolt seperately (as with Magic Missile). In Magic Missile's case, it's just unfortunate that the damage of each missile is only 1 die, which halved, becomes zero dice.

Not every metamagic has to be GOOD for each spell it COULD be used on, for example.

 

[Xarlen]

edit: he changed his response.