A few questions regarding Charging (Pounce) and multiple attacks

[RigaMortus2]

If a PC has the "Pounce" ability (such as the Psychic Warrior's Lion's Charge power), which allows them to do a full round attack at the end of a charge, do they get their charge attack PLUS a full round worth of attacks?

Example:

Psychic Warrior that has Lion's Charge and a BAB of +11/+6/+1. He charges. Would get the the charge attack (+11 base and +2 from charging) and THEN his iterative attacks +11/+6/+1? Or is his first iterative attack considered his charge, in which case it would be +11 (+2 from charging)/+6/+1?

My second question is, would the +2 "to hit" from charging factor into all his attacks (so technically it would either be:
A)+13(charge)/+13(1st iterative attack)/+8(2nd iterative attack)/+3 (3rd iterative attack)?
or
B)+13(1st iterative attack + charge bonus)/+8(2nd iterative attack + charge bonus)/+3 (3rd iterative attack + charge bonus)?

And finally, what about feats that enhance charging damage, such as Leap Attack. If you make a Jump check as part of a charge, you can deal double damage w/ your power attack (or triple when using a 2-handed weapon). So, would ALL the attacks after the charge get x2(x3) power attack damage, or just the 1st?

 

[Drowbane]

Absolutely! The effects of charging last until the begging of your next round, right (or is that just the AC penalty?)? From a logical viewpoint, the bonuses from Charging has alot to do with momentum (and the skills to make it work for you - certain feats!)... so if you are skilled enough to lay down 3 attacks at the end of your charge... you get your +2 to hit for all of them... as well as the sickness that is Leap Attack (anybody else remember Powerlunge?).

Hopefully someone better versed in RAW (Hypersmurf! I choose you!) will show up shortly and give more than just a gut reaction.







My Psionicly active Thri-kreen (with Leap Attack & Psionic Lion's Charge) awaits the results!

 

[Beckett]

After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a -2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.

So, the AC penalty lasts, but the attack bonus is on one attack roll.

So, I belive the generally accepted result of pounce would be:

+13(charge)/+11/6/+1 (full attack after the charge). Until the character's next turn he suffers a -2 AC penalty.

 

[Hypersmurf]

By a strict reading, I agree with Beckett. A charge is a move-plus-attack. Pounce allows you to follow this move-plus-attack with a full attack action. The charge attack gains +2 on the attack roll, plus any charge-related benefits (extra damage, multipliers, feats, etc etc); the attacks in the full attack action are subsequent to the charge's completion, and do not benefit from the charge in any way.

-Hyp.

 

[GorTeX]

Ugh!
Charge..Attack once, then full attack. So given the +11/+6/+1, you'd really get +13/+11/+6/+1...Four attacks for charging.

Makes no sense, and I've never seen anyone run it that way, but you appear to be correct by RAW (unless I'm missing somthing in the FAQ or errata).

makes things with pounce much more deadly than I've seen (and they've seemed pretty bad as it was).

The way I've always seen it run (not going by RAW, but better, IMO) is just charge and get a full attack with each attack receiving a +2 from the charge..so +13/+8/+3 (three attacks)..(basically pounce changes charge from Move+attack to Move+Full Attack)

 

[Hypersmurf]

makes things with pounce much more deadly than I've seen (and they've seemed pretty bad as it was).

But if you grant +2 for charging on every attack of a full attack action, you must logically also allow triple damage for the Spirited Charge with the lance on every attack of that Full Attack action, and +2d6 for Rhino Hide Armor on every attack, etc, etc, etc.

I'd rather see one extra attack, than five attacks all at triple damage etc etc...

-Hyp.

 

[pawsplay]

If a PC has the "Pounce" ability (such as the Psychic Warrior's Lion's Charge power), which allows them to do a full round attack at the end of a charge, do they get their charge attack PLUS a full round worth of attacks?

I'm saying no. It does not say say "after the charge," or "as a free action," it says, "at the end of the charge," and that is the phrase always used to describe the attack that happens "at the end of the charge."

Pounce and such are very dangerous abilities. Many abilities, such as powerful charge, only affect the first such attack, but others, such as the charge bonus itself, skirmish, and so forth

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Makes no sense, and I've never seen anyone run it that way, but you appear to be correct by RAW (unless I'm missing somthing in the FAQ or errata).

Exactly. It's a case of a clever interpretation of an oversight in the rules. And it's changing the intent from allowing you to make a full attack on what would normally only allow a single attack, into giving you a bonus full attack on top of your regular action.

No DM worth his salt should allow this.

 

[pawsplay]

Exactly. It's a case of a clever interpretation of an oversight in the rules. And it's changing the intent from allowing you to make a full attack on what would normally only allow a single attack, into giving you a bonus full attack on top of your regular action.

Hmm, I'm not sure the RAW backs up this interpretation, although I'll return to the psionic power momentarily. All the pounce ability says on, say, a tiger, is that you can make a full attack when you charge. It does not grant any additional actions. It only allows a full attack "when you charge." It does not say:

- a full attack in addition to the charge, or
- a full attack after your charge

Psionic lion's charge says you can charge like a lion, but then also adds the problematic text:

"When you charge, you can make a full attack in the same round."

Now let's examine what that means. You have one round. Using a charge takes up that round. You can make a full atack. So is the "in the same round" language redundant (it happens the same round the ability is used) or is it expansive (you get a free full attack)? The power says one thing, then turns around and contradicts it, by my reading of the standard pounce ability and a literal reading of the power. Perhaps the author meant "in the same action," but we don't know.

It seems likely to me that pounce itself does not give you an additional action, but works in the intuitive way. But psionic lion's charge and a few other abilities may have been written badly, ambiguously, or as a result of a misunderstanding.

 

[Hypersmurf]

You have one round. Using a charge takes up that round.

Not necessarily; it occurs during that round. But you can also take a swift or immediate action, several free actions, potentially a move action from Hustle or Snake's Swiftness or a standard action from Quickness [Su]...

So, "When you charge" - movement plus a single attack - "you can make a full attack in the same round".

Which is "charging like a lion". Pounce [Ex] is described:
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack.

So when it makes a charge (move plus a single attack), it can follow that move-plus-attack with a full attack.

-Hyp.