A few questions regarding Charging (Pounce) and multiple attacks

[pawsplay]

Which is "charging like a lion". Pounce [Ex] is described:
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack.
.

Where did you pull that text from? I'm trying to compare sources.

 

[Christian]

Where did you pull that text from? I'm trying to compare sources.

MM pg. 313, the glossary entry for 'Pounce'. (I don't know if that's where Hyp got that, but it's an exact quote, so ...)

 

[pawsplay]

Well, I guess that settles that, then.

 

[billd91]

Not necessarily; it occurs during that round. But you can also take a swift or immediate action, several free actions, potentially a move action from Hustle or Snake's Swiftness or a standard action from Quickness [Su]...

So, "When you charge" - movement plus a single attack - "you can make a full attack in the same round".

Which is "charging like a lion". Pounce [Ex] is described:
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack.

So when it makes a charge (move plus a single attack), it can follow that move-plus-attack with a full attack.

-Hyp.

I think that when they say charge in this case, they mean the movement associated with the charge action and not the attack itself. I think they probably mean for the full attack to replace the single attack at the end of the charge.
People keep expecting the rules to read like exacting mathematical proofs and they just don't hold up to that level of scrutiny.

 

[Evil DM]

I must agree with billd91.

After reading pounce and charge several times I would also say that the description in pounce only relates to the movement.

In the text of charge ist written:

Even if you have extra attacks, such as from having a high enough base attack bonus or from using multiple weapons, you only get to make one attack during a charge.

So the full attack option replaces the single melee attack.


But billd91:
I do not fully agree with you last sentence.
First: If you read the text as it is - the interpretation given above seems very reasonable.
Second: Sometimes it is the other way round: Only reading carefully gives you the right mechanics.
Third: It would not have been more work for wizards to write the text more carefully.
Like:
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can make a full attack—including rake attacks if the creature also has the rake ability.

Cheers, Evil DM

 

[Hypersmurf]

I must agree with billd91.

After reading pounce and charge several times I would also say that the description in pounce only relates to the movement.

In the text of charge ist written:

So the full attack option replaces the single melee attack.

I get the opposite result from the piece you quoted. The single attack is made during the charge. The full attack follows the charge. How can the full attack replace the single attack, given that they occur on opposite sides of the end-of-charge boundary?

-Hyp.

 

[Evil DM]

Yes.

I agree with you that it is very confusing. In my Opinion this happens because of two things:
1. folllow
2. charge = only movement ?

If we go down to the basic mechanics the charge gives you:

Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action.

Normally you get: Move Action + Standart Action (= normally single attack)

The charge gives you more: Move Action + Move Action + Standart Action ( = single Attack)
But it counts as a full round action.
A normal full round action gives you all your extra attacks plus a 5 foot step if you like.

And now I would say the pounce gives you a big full round action:
Move Action + Move Action + Full Attack

If you treat it like you interpretate it you would have something like two Full Round Actions:
Move Action + Move Action + Standart Action (First Full Round Action)
+ Full Attack (Second Full Round Action (minus 5 foot step ))

To be honest that cannot be.

If you compare it to haste: You only get one extra attack and only if you take the Full Attack Option. They reduced it from the 3rd Edition where you get an Extra Standart Action (which made it very usefull for wizards).

So Pounce would be really overpowered if you get two Full Round Actions.

Cheers, Evil DM

 

[Hypersmurf]

2. charge = only movement ?

But it doesn't. Charge is a full-round action that includes movement and an attack.

"The charge" is movement followed by an attack. If you wish to refer to the movement portion of a charge... well, that's the sort of phrase you'd have to use. If you omit such qualifiers, the word 'charge' refers to the combination of movement and attack.

To be honest that cannot be.

Of course it can.

So Pounce would be really overpowered if you get two Full Round Actions.

Ah, 'overpowered' is an entirely different question than 'legal'.

But again, I'm more concerned about the overpowered nature of an ability that allows a full attack that is considered part of a charge than an ability that allows a full attack action separate to a charge... given the abilities out there that give boosts to charge attacks.

-Hyp.

 

[kerbarian]

Pounce [Ex] is described:
When a creature with this special attack makes a charge, it can follow with a full attack.

The most recent wording I'm aware of is from Lion's Charge in SC: "This spell grants you the pounce special ability (MM 313), allowing you to make a full attack at the end of a charge."

"at the end of a charge" would be during the charge -- just the last part of it. So it looks like it's inconsistent with the wording of pounce in the MM. A spell description certainly wouldn't change the mechanics of pounce in general, but it gives some indication that the intent was to replace charge's single attack with a full attack.

One thing that would be interesting to find -- are there any official sources that include an example combat where a creature pounces?

 

[starwed]

But again, I'm more concerned about the overpowered nature of an ability that allows a full attack that is considered part of a charge than an ability that allows a full attack action separate to a charge... given the abilities out there that give boosts to charge attacks.

There is, in TOB: 9swords, an ability which allows you to make a pounce like attack. While I don't have the book with me, it definately grants the +2 charge bonus to each attack.