A Fighters skill points....

[takyris]

Yeah, 'cause when Weapon Focus wears off, your fighter is totally shafted. And Quick Draw only works one time, and then he has to prepare it all over again -- and how the fighter has to choose beforehand whether or not he wants to attack with a greatsword three times, or with a greatsword once and a longsword and shield twice, or whether he wants to use expertise once and then use a longbow once and then maybe have a throwing axe that he can use one time for ranged attacks or melee attacks.

How do I know when I wake up in the morning whether I'm going to need to use my longbow or my greatsword? Sometimes I prepare nothing but greatswords, and then it's more of a longbow day, and I'm like useless.

Sure, I can maybe get a few more swings of the axe per day, but only if I make myself unable to use bludgeoning weapons AT ALL. What kind of a tradeoff is that?

And don't even get me STARTED on that new minute/level duration for Power Attack.

The fighter is nerfed. NERFED, I tell you.

 

[KarinsDad]

Whoa.
You've just opinioned yourself into a corner there, KD.

Did I? Are you sure?

So can I paraphrase your opinion to this: "The PHB feats are not underpowered."

No, you can paraphrase it to the non-PHB feats are often overpowered.

In the context of this discussion (the Ftr being underpowered), you have just set yourself up to support the following statement:
One fighter feat, 6 HP's and +1 more BAB is equal in power to 2 levels of spellcasting and familiar progression and 2/5ths of a metamagic feat.

This is easily derived from comparing the class benefits of 2 levels of wizard vs 2 levels of Ftr.

The wizard basically gains 4 new spells and 3 to 4 (depending on stat modifier) spells he can cast per day. The fighter gains a feat.

Everything else is basically a wash.

So, is it worth it? Probably. The fighter can use that feat round after round after round, day after day after day. The wizard can use those spells 3 times per day.

The wizard gains versatility and power. The fighter gains reusability and power.

But, your entire analysis assumes that the wizard can actually survive to 20th level where his versatility and power overwhelm that of the 20th level fighter.

I think that is a poor assumption for most wizard characters. If they start out at first level, their chances of survival are worse than a fighters, especially at low level where a single shot can get them below zero hit points.

And, it is not just hit points. It is also AC. If the low level wizard boosts his AC with Mage Armor and/or Shield, sure, he has a similar AC to the fighter. But suddenly, he has one or two fewer spells, fewer hit points, and a weaker weapon attack.

Sure, the wizard has Scribe Scroll and can put his cash into scrolls to help him. But while he is doing that, the fighter is putting his cash into permanent magical items.

If the wizard finds more spells (beyond his 2 per level allotment) and adds them to his book, he is burning through 200 GP per spell level of his cash on that.

Hence, the fighter should typically have more money with which to purchase items (if that is allowed in the game). The wizard can get more advanced item creation feats, but that is using up his precious feats to lower the cost of items that he wants. Money versus feats.

All in all, I think the entire issue is mostly a wash. Each class has pros and cons. The fighter is more (or just as) powerful until about 7th level. So, his chances of surviving to get to that point are greater. The wizards chances before that point are less, but after that point are greater.

In my experience though, that's a wash. We tend to start our campaigns at low level (first through third) and have not had any last much beyond tenth (usually people move out of town or want to start their own or a different campaign or other life issues intrude). Hence, just at the point where the wizard (if he survives) is starting to hold his own or actually shine, the campaign ends.

So sure, if you do run high level campaigns, you are starting at the point were the wizard has enough spells to be versatile over several combats and can outshine the fighter.

But even at something like 15th level, that verstility and power does not prevent the wizard (or the fighter for that matter) from being killed from a single 50+ point dragon breath or a single swing of a fighters vorpal sword, or even a gray ooze dropping on his head.

If a DM plays his NPCs stupidly, sure you can have the wizards hide behind the front line of combatant types and be attacked less often. But, if the DM plays a plausible game (i.e. ones where the NPC characters and creatures play to the best of their abilities because that is how they survive), then wizards will get attacked by creatures nearly as often as fighers do. In those cases, it is the wizard who is "underpowered", even at higher levels. IMO.

Hence, it all balances out in the long run as long as the players are having fun.

 

[FrankTrollman]

The wizard basically gains 4 new spells and 3 to 4 (depending on stat modifier) spells he can cast per day. The fighter gains a feat.

They're handing out negative stat modifiers for Wizards now?

Wizards are generally specialists - which means that since they get 3 or 4 spells in two levels of wizard before bonus spells - that they get 4 or 5 spells - and if they have a statistic bonus it rises to 5 or 6.

If you thought that feat was balanced against 3 spells per day - how do you feel about comparing it to the 6 new spells per day that a Wizard is getting at high level?

-Frank

 

[Thanee]

I suppose there will be more generalist Wizards in 3.5 now (compared to 3.0), but that doesn't invalidate the point!

Bye
Thanee

 

[Curugul]

Well, no, but

I suppose there will be more generalist Wizards in 3.5 now (compared to 3.0), but that doesn't invalidate the point!

Sorcerors do.

A *key* point, one i'd like to hear an answer from anybody on is: Do you really have enough encounters, tough encounters, per day at mid to high levels that casters honestly run out of spells? I've never seen it, as a Sorceror or a Druid. Perhaps this is unique to our campaigns. Perhaps most people do have 6+ encounters a day, or encounter enough foes that fighters start to shine. I rather doubt it, however.



Curugul

 

[KarinsDad]

They're handing out negative stat modifiers for Wizards now?

Wizards are generally specialists - which means that since they get 3 or 4 spells in two levels of wizard before bonus spells - that they get 4 or 5 spells - and if they have a statistic bonus it rises to 5 or 6.

If you thought that feat was balanced against 3 spells per day - how do you feel about comparing it to the 6 new spells per day that a Wizard is getting at high level?

First off, no wizard (without non-core feats or PrCs) can get 6 new spells per two levels at high level. The maximum is 5.

A specialist wizard can get 6 at low level, but not at high level.


Also, this type of philosophy leads to other "broken classes philosophies" every two levels:

Fighter, one feat, 6 hps, and +1 extra BAB (really, really broke)
Generalist Wizard, 3 or 4 more set spells per day (really broke)
Specialist Wizard, 5 or 6 more set spells per day (broke)
Sorcerer, 6 or 7 more non-set spells per day (not broke)

Where do you draw the line?


Each class fills a different niche. Attempting to compare them is like comparing apples and oranges. Similar, but different.

Everyone is whining about those poor high level fighters, any one of which can wipe out a village all on their own because the high level wizard can wipe out a town. Boo hoo.

Nobody is whining about those poor low level wizards, any one of which can be wiped out by a couple of villagers. Nobody is whining about those poor Wizards who have a worse chance to actually survive to mid to high level.


Although your analysis is basically correct, your conclusions are unfounded. There are too many variables to compare two such dissimilar character classes. Each has their day in the sun. Each has their pros and cons. Bottom line.


I think the real issue here is that there are so MANY cool/uber feats and PrCs in non-core WotC and non-WotC products that people deceive themselves into thinking that the ones in the core rules are "not cool".

Bigger, better, badder syndrome strikes yet again. Sigh.

A *key* point, one i'd like to hear an answer from anybody on is: Do you really have enough encounters, tough encounters, per day at mid to high levels that casters honestly run out of spells?

No, but the counter question to this is: Do you really have enough encounters, tough encounters, per day at low levels that casters honestly run out of spells?

The answer to this is yes in most campaigns. How often do you have situations where the combatant types are mostly uninjured or slightly injured, but the party camps for the night at 10 AM because the cleric is out of cure spells and/or the arcane spell caster is low or out of spells?

Nobody is stating that Wizards are not more powerful than Fighters at high level.

But, people are forgetting that Fighters are more powerful than Wizards at low level.

That is called balance.

 

[Storminator]

Sorcerors do.

A *key* point, one i'd like to hear an answer from anybody on is: Do you really have enough encounters, tough encounters, per day at mid to high levels that casters honestly run out of spells? I've never seen it, as a Sorceror or a Druid. Perhaps this is unique to our campaigns. Perhaps most people do have 6+ encounters a day, or encounter enough foes that fighters start to shine. I rather doubt it, however.



Curugul

Run out? No. But I have seen the case where the 16th level wizard was reduced to 1st level spells (and out of Magic Missiles at that!). That was 2 major fights. By major fights I mean 3 18th level NPCs followed by the BBEG, his duplicate, his CR 15 imp familiar, its duplicate, and a dozen or so dreadnaught barbarians.

PS

 

[FrankTrollman]

First off, no wizard (without non-core feats or PrCs) can get 6 new spells per two levels at high level. The maximum is 5.

OK, let's have a 9th level Diviner (or some other specialist wizard, for whatever reason), with an intelligence of 22 (including his 2 stat raises and his headband of +4 intellect - so we are starting at a 16 Int):

At 10th level he picks up :

1 5th level spell
1 4th level spell

At 11th level he picks up:

1 6th level spell
1 6th level spell for specialization
1 6th level spell for Intelligence
1 3rd level spell

That's six spells. And it didn't require anything convoluted. If you do something around a level where you get a stat raise you can potentially get 7 spells in two levels. And yes, even a non-specialist can get his stat raise at 12th level and gain 6 spells in that time.

Do you have any other bold assertions that you want to make that can be disproved that easily?

-Frank

 

[Thanee]

A *key* point, one i'd like to hear an answer from anybody on is: Do you really have enough encounters, tough encounters, per day at mid to high levels that casters honestly run out of spells?

Maybe not run out of spells completely, but we regularily have to resort to less than optimum spells, because the best ones are used up already, or save better spells and use other ones, because it's still a lot to be expected.

Bye
Thanee

 

[reapersaurus]

KD - no, I'm not sure, but I think so.

Let me paraphrase you again: "The PHB feats are of an adequate power level." Fair?

This is further enforced by your statement that you think

The wizard basically gains 4 new spells and 3 to 4 (depending on stat modifier) spells he can cast per day. The fighter gains a feat.
Everything else is basically a wash.
So, is it worth it? Probably. The fighter can use that feat round after round after round, day after day after day. The wizard can use those spells 3 times per day.
The wizard gains versatility and power. The fighter gains reusability and power.

Well, I think it's been shown that the comparison is on average FIVE spells that are gained, vs ONE feat.
What skews the comparison even more is that each time the mage gains those 5 spells, they are geometrically more powerful. Of course, the Ftr's feat power stays almost the same, other than feat chains.

House Rule idea!
Mages should have to learn spell-chains to get to their more powerful spells.
They shouldn't be able to dip right in and get Improved Invisibility (Greater Invis now?) unless they have spent the resources to learn multiple spells leading up to it (i.e. Silent Image, Invisibility, Invisibility Sphere).

Back to KarinsDad - So no, I think it's fairly simple to conclude that 1 feat (especially a PHB FTR feat) is not worth 5 spells of increasing power and flexibility.

Can you argue that 1 feat IS worth those 5 spells? I'm interested in the counter-argument. Keep in mind that if your main reason is because spells are limited, and feats aren't, you have to take into account how often mages don't run out of spells in a day (which I'm positive is the VAST majority of the time), and also take into account that many of the best feats have even more limited uses per day than a mage's spells (Power Critical, Extra Smite and others are ONE time per day).

Now, on to your points about a mage being more likely to die at lower levels, and also being less powerful at low level.
It may look that way at first glance, but I'm not sure if that's actually the case.
Just because mage's have less HP, doesn't necessarily mean they die more often. Of course, the only proof of this would be to take an accurate census of players and DM's (which is too tough to do), but I doubt if mages actually die more often than any other class (if I had to guess which class dies the most from reading these boards for years, it would be the MONK).

There are reasons why the mages don't die.
* They WILL have higher DEX than most fighter-types, so they will more than likely go first in combat.
* They more than likely are in a defended position, so they won't be killed in the 1st round.
* Everyone knows they are fragile, so everyone's actions are made with that in mind.
* Their Familiar is an extra 50% of HP's, just sitting there waiting if they want to use (many people forget this).
* From 1st level on, look at the spell list, and see the spells which could single-handedly or in combination make it so the mage survives, or will be more powerful than the Ftr-type.
I'll thrown out a few: Shield, Grease, Obscuring Mist, True Strike (able to hit targets the Ftr's can't, thereby saving the day), Charm Person, Hypnotism, Sleep, Magic Missile (again taking out opponents the Ftr's can't), Color Spray, Ray of Enfeeblement (reduces opponent's threat with NO SAVE), Enlarge Person (can change a whole battle, but probably used on Ftr), and of course Expeditious Retreat (mage can be saved with one spell).
That's just at 1st level!
2nd level has Alter Self and Scorching Ray, both of which are more powerful than any number of feats a Ftr gets.
And it gets worse from there....

I hope this points out how your statements that a Wizard is more likely to die, and is less powerful at low level, are fallacious arguments.
But it's all opinion, and most opinions don't change regardless of persuasive arguments to the contrary, I just hope you can see the other side, KD.