D&D 5E A Game of Feats

[Szatany]

For those who like to design stuff, lets have some fun. The rules of the game are: the poster above you posts a feat from the latest dndn packet, and your job is to make that feat equal to +1 bonus to ability score. You can change the effect of the feat, or you can add to it, but it still has to make sense in relation to the original.
Beacuse we can't copypaste text from the playtest packet, writing it in your own words is okay (as opposed to rules-like wording).

The first task iiiiis: Improved Initiative.

 

[Gargoyle]

Improved Initiative

You gain advantage on your initiative rolls.


My reasoning is that the closest equivalent to a +1 to an ability score is +1 Dexterity. Assuming you use it to get an even number, such a bonus would give you +1 to Initiative, +1 to ranged attacks, +1 to all Dex checks, +1 to AC, and +1 to all Dex saving throws. So instead of a total of five +1 bonuses, the original bonus of one +4 bonus to Initiative with some insurance to bad rolls seems ok to me, but...

Half the time you don't really get anything from a +1 bonus to Dex; whenever it's increased to an odd number, you get nothing, so the equivalent of a +1 ability bonus is actually a little lower. Most of the time you will increase it only when it's an even number, but if you don't play a MAD class, you'll be focusing on one stat regardless. Since advantage is equivalent about +3.325 IIRC and also provides some built in insurance for bad rolls, I dropped the insurance for rolling less than a ten and use advantage instead of a flat +4 to nerf it slightly while simplifying it.

Next up: Iron Hide

 

[Szatany]

Improved Initiative

You gain advantage on your initiative rolls.


My reasoning is that the closest equivalent to a +1 to an ability score is +1 Dexterity. Assuming you use it to get an even number, such a bonus would give you +1 to Initiative, +1 to ranged attacks, +1 to all Dex checks, +1 to AC, and +1 to all Dex saving throws. So instead of a total of five +1 bonuses,
Next up: Iron Hide

I don't think it's fair to assume that, but its interesting to know how other people reason about this. IMO one feat gives +1/2 initiative, +1/2 ranged attacks and finesse melee attacks, +1/2 dex checks and saves, +1/2 AC, and +1/2 to some class abilities that will inevitably appear in the game.

Improved Initiative

You gain advantage on your initiative rolls.

This seems very similar in power level to the existing feat. I think, if we seen Imp Init in the next packet, it will give much more.

Iron Hide
Prerequisites: Con 13.
Whenever you take damage from an effect that targets your Armor Class, roll your skill die and take that much damage less. If the result would be zero or less, you also ignore effects that require attack to deal damage (such as poison on a damaging hit).

Next up: Lunge

 

[Gargoyle]

I don't think it's fair to assume that, but its interesting to know how other people reason about this. IMO one feat gives +1/2 initiative, +1/2 ranged attacks and finesse melee attacks, +1/2 dex checks and saves, +1/2 AC, and +1/2 to some class abilities that will inevitably appear in the game.

This seems very similar in power level to the existing feat. I think, if we seen Imp Init in the next packet, it will give much more.

Why? My final design didn't assume that you would only increase it if it gave you an even number, and I went into why. And like I said, I actually nerfed the existing feat a little because of that. Your idea that you get +1/2 bonuses is valid enough in the long run, but adding those up, you only get +2.5 total bonuses. So even if you assume that people will always take the ability score bonus to max out their Dex in the long run, I feel like I'm still being generous with a nerfed version, and I'm not sure why you'd buff it.

 

[Szatany]

Why?

Beacuse, in my opinion, an advantage on initative rolls and another similarily powerful ability are still worse than +1 initiative, +1 ranged attacks and finesse melee attacks, +1 dex checks and saves, +1 AC, and +1 to some class abilities that will inevitably appear in the game.
I'm starting to think that the best way to compare feats to ability increases is to compare them in pairs. At least then you know exactly what the benefits are on the ability increase side of the equation.

Your idea that you get +1/2 bonuses is valid enough in the long run, but adding those up, you only get +2.5 total bonuses.

I don't think you can make a claim like that. Starting ability scores will vary from player to player. And the want to increase scores beyond the first one will vary from class to class.

 

[Rhenny]

Right now, with monster hp so low, and monster ACs pretty low too, I think that a +4 to initiative is too powerful. In many cases going first becomes the determining factor in making a combat encounter much less difficult than DM planned.

I'd rather fold Improved Initiative into Combat Reflexes and lessen the bonus so that it fits better with Bounded Accuracy.

Example: Combat Reflexes - gain +2 to initiative and the ability to make multiple attacks of opportunity against different foes. Levels 1-10 2 AO limit. Levels 11+ 3 AO limit. Level 18+ unlimited AO.

 

[Gargoyle]

Beacuse, in my opinion, an advantage on initative rolls and another similarily powerful ability are still worse than +1 initiative, +1 ranged attacks and finesse melee attacks, +1 dex checks and saves, +1 AC, and +1 to some class abilities that will inevitably appear in the game.
I'm starting to think that the best way to compare feats to ability increases is to compare them in pairs. At least then you know exactly what the benefits are on the ability increase side of the equation.

Yeah, or they need to change ability score bonuses so that every ability score gives you a bonus, or make it so that giving up a feat gives you +2 to an ability score. Right now there are a lot of variables.

I don't think you can make a claim like that. Starting ability scores will vary from player to player. And the want to increase scores beyond the first one will vary from class to class.

Sure I can. It's not perfect because of the variables...the bonuses are different from each other and have different values to different classes/builds, but I would submit it's a start. There is a certain art to game design, and it has to also pass the "feel right" test, and of course, playtesting. But as this is just a game of feats on a forum, I think I sure can use a little math to justify my conclusions, even if the basis isn't solid, it's better than nothing. You still haven't justified why you would buff the feat beyond the original design. Hard to believe that it needs to be better than the original to equal +1 to an ability score, but I guess that's subjective like everything else.

 

[Szatany]

You still haven't justified why you would buff the feat beyond the original design.

That's simple. "Old" feats are much weaker than those new ones will be, so every feat must be made stronger.

Plus, Mike tweated that new feats will be "tremendous". That tells me a mere advantage on initiative checks is not going to cut it.
I'm not saying that the bonus should be higher, but I firmly believe that imp init feat will give something extra on top of that.
For example,

Improved Initiative
You have advantage on initiative rolls.
At the end of your turn, you may make an initiative roll and use it from now on if you want.
Whenever you roll 20 for initiative, you gain one additional action on your next turn.

Now that's a good feat.

 

[Szatany]

Right now, with monster hp so low, and monster ACs pretty low too, I think that a +4 to initiative is too powerful. In many cases going first becomes the determining factor in making a combat encounter much less difficult than DM planned.

I'd rather fold Improved Initiative into Combat Reflexes and lessen the bonus so that it fits better with Bounded Accuracy.

Example: Combat Reflexes - gain +2 to initiative and the ability to make multiple attacks of opportunity against different foes. Levels 1-10 2 AO limit. Levels 11+ 3 AO limit. Level 18+ unlimited AO.

But you still have to call it Improved Initiative if you want to play the game of feats

 

[Gargoyle]

That's simple. "Old" feats are much weaker than those new ones will be, so every feat must be made stronger.

Plus, Mike tweated that new feats will be "tremendous". That tells me a mere advantage on initiative checks is not going to cut it.
I'm not saying that the bonus should be higher, but I firmly believe that imp init feat will give something extra on top of that.
For example,

Improved Initiative
You have advantage on initiative rolls.
At the end of your turn, you may make an initiative roll and use it from now on if you want.
Whenever you roll 20 for initiative, you gain one additional action on your next turn.

Now that's a good feat.

Ok, but it seems to violate your rule:

your job is to make that feat equal to +1 bonus to ability score.

There is no way I'd take +1 bonus to ability score over your version of Improved Initiative.

Characters built with feats such as this will be much more powerful than those that opt for ability score increases. I realize that the contradiction is from Mearls, not you, he just isn't clear about the power level. But IMO since feats will also be multi-level, I think it's a good bet that what Mearls meant is that most 1st level feats (aka feats that have no level requirement) will be equivalent to +1 ability score, whereas higher level feats will be slightly higher.

But meh, who knows? His L&L columns raise more questions than answers. Will be interesting to see what they have in mind.