A good idea or horrible blasphemy?
- Thread starter JacktheRabbit
- Start date
Tauric
First Post
In the game I am running currently, the most fearsome character is the rogue with his spiked chain.
He flanks and does huge damage without being vulnerable to retaliation.
Also, in this current group, there is no cleric, just a Bard with a CLW wand.
So, from my experience with this campaign, I can't see clerics as being overpowered if they are unecessary, and the Bard and Rogue are the key figures.
From the past, I know Rogues make good snipers. (Although once he missed while I was giving cover. )
He flanks and does huge damage without being vulnerable to retaliation.
Also, in this current group, there is no cleric, just a Bard with a CLW wand.
So, from my experience with this campaign, I can't see clerics as being overpowered if they are unecessary, and the Bard and Rogue are the key figures.
From the past, I know Rogues make good snipers. (Although once he missed while I was giving cover. )
s/LaSH
First Post
It occurs to me that the Cleric in my campaign can absorb more punishment than the Fighter... and the fighter's got some bonuses that I don't even want to mention. Reducing the HD would alleviate this situation, I guess; an elven cleric with more hp than the big bad fighter is a bit of a faux pas, really.
Although it's not helped by the fact that the fighter's player has a psychokinetic self-hate thing going on; guess what his most common attack roll is? 5. The next most common? 3. And it keeps happening, even when he goes to roll hp on a different die he gets screwed.
Although it's not helped by the fact that the fighter's player has a psychokinetic self-hate thing going on; guess what his most common attack roll is? 5. The next most common? 3. And it keeps happening, even when he goes to roll hp on a different die he gets screwed.
DocMoriartty said:Oh I dont know.
Ever gotten in a fight with a tree hugger? They aren't so tough.
I'd make the observation that tree huggeres live in the city, Grizzly Adams lives in the woods. If I had to pick a fight with one of them, I'm going for the city living, kevin freeing, guy trying to convince me to sign a petition to get their Normal canidate on the ballot, over the guy who wrestles with a bear at the end of the day as part of his rest and relaxation regimen.
EarthsShadow
First Post
I think if you changed it to vitality and wounds, then the vitality die for the bard/rogue increasing to d8 would be appropriate considering what vp represent, and lowering it for the cleric to d6 could balance it somewhat.
I would also think about the following contradiction within the game system: The Bards are considered the jack of all trades, but they get shafted compared to the Rogue. To balance them, the Bard should be the ones getting 8 skill points per level and the Rogue's should be getting 6 skill points per level. If you split up the Perform skill to be similar to Craft and Profession and Knowledge, each being their own seperate skill, then the balance is upheld.
Also, you could say that clerics of different faiths, following different gods, would have different hit dice. Some of the more militant clerics who follow the more militant gods could have higher hit dice but not as many skill points and the ones that follow the more non-combatative gods could get more skills points with the lower hit die, and maybe a better save's option also or another domain, or something.
I would also think about the following contradiction within the game system: The Bards are considered the jack of all trades, but they get shafted compared to the Rogue. To balance them, the Bard should be the ones getting 8 skill points per level and the Rogue's should be getting 6 skill points per level. If you split up the Perform skill to be similar to Craft and Profession and Knowledge, each being their own seperate skill, then the balance is upheld.
Also, you could say that clerics of different faiths, following different gods, would have different hit dice. Some of the more militant clerics who follow the more militant gods could have higher hit dice but not as many skill points and the ones that follow the more non-combatative gods could get more skills points with the lower hit die, and maybe a better save's option also or another domain, or something.
Tar Markvar
First Post
Why would you want to REDUCE someone's stats, especially if they're already playing and enjoying the character?
These people aren't competing directly with each other. In a cooperative game, complaints based on overpower/underpower are simply jealousy and spotlight-envy. And, to be honest, having played a cleric for 10 levels, anyone envying the cleric's spotlight has got to be kidding themselves.
Sure, you can make a War/Strength cleric that tears it up in combat. The thing about that is that that's what that cleric is made for. He won't be as good at other things as a cleric with, say, the Divination/Magic domains, which will be comparable in arcane knowledge (not spells, but knowledge) with a wizard. That Divinatory cleric won't be as good at subtle manipulation as a cleric with Trickery and Travel. In NO way do these clerics replace other group members, because being a cleric comes down to one thing: Healing.
Domain spell slots aside, the VAST majority of my cleric's spells were swapped out for healing. It's just expected, and you can do it, and healing is most likely the most efficient way of adding to the effectiveness of your party out of ALL the neat spells you can do. Sure, a cleric can swing a mace around, but most will spend the early rounds of combat buffing and the late rounds healing, and if the cleric's any good, the combat won't last very long.
The cleric is very flexible on paper, and that gives the illusion of power. On the other hand, no one cleric can do ALL of that. Consider the restrictions of alignment, adherence to the gawd's tenets, and other roleplaying restrictions, too.
Rogues depend greatly on their skills, but they're FEARSOME with the right ones. A rogue with Gather Information can be almost as good a diviner as a Diviner. A rogue with good stealth skills, tumbling, and Spring Attack/Mobility can be a terror on the battlefield. Improved Initiative will give a rogue tons of great chances for Sneak Attacks, which is where rogues shine. Not to mention that they can all use magical devices, detect traps with Search, and have enough points to keep Pick Lock and Disable Device high, whereas no one else does. If your rogue is having spotlight envy, then something's wrong.
The best guage I know of for overpoweredness is how often people want to play the class. I usually run the party's cleric as an NPC beause everyone seems to want to be a melee class or rogue in our group. That says something to me. Maybe the 3E cleric's power and flexibility is payback for people who want to play such a support class in the first place.
These people aren't competing directly with each other. In a cooperative game, complaints based on overpower/underpower are simply jealousy and spotlight-envy. And, to be honest, having played a cleric for 10 levels, anyone envying the cleric's spotlight has got to be kidding themselves.
Sure, you can make a War/Strength cleric that tears it up in combat. The thing about that is that that's what that cleric is made for. He won't be as good at other things as a cleric with, say, the Divination/Magic domains, which will be comparable in arcane knowledge (not spells, but knowledge) with a wizard. That Divinatory cleric won't be as good at subtle manipulation as a cleric with Trickery and Travel. In NO way do these clerics replace other group members, because being a cleric comes down to one thing: Healing.
Domain spell slots aside, the VAST majority of my cleric's spells were swapped out for healing. It's just expected, and you can do it, and healing is most likely the most efficient way of adding to the effectiveness of your party out of ALL the neat spells you can do. Sure, a cleric can swing a mace around, but most will spend the early rounds of combat buffing and the late rounds healing, and if the cleric's any good, the combat won't last very long.
The cleric is very flexible on paper, and that gives the illusion of power. On the other hand, no one cleric can do ALL of that. Consider the restrictions of alignment, adherence to the gawd's tenets, and other roleplaying restrictions, too.
Rogues depend greatly on their skills, but they're FEARSOME with the right ones. A rogue with Gather Information can be almost as good a diviner as a Diviner. A rogue with good stealth skills, tumbling, and Spring Attack/Mobility can be a terror on the battlefield. Improved Initiative will give a rogue tons of great chances for Sneak Attacks, which is where rogues shine. Not to mention that they can all use magical devices, detect traps with Search, and have enough points to keep Pick Lock and Disable Device high, whereas no one else does. If your rogue is having spotlight envy, then something's wrong.
The best guage I know of for overpoweredness is how often people want to play the class. I usually run the party's cleric as an NPC beause everyone seems to want to be a melee class or rogue in our group. That says something to me. Maybe the 3E cleric's power and flexibility is payback for people who want to play such a support class in the first place.
RogerBacon
First Post
Havoc said:
You would love the “Book of the Righteous”. It does away with the “Paladin” and replaces it with the “Holy Warrior”. Now the Holy Warrior has the save hit, save, and hd progression of a Paladin and he chooses two of his god’s domains to determine his special abilities. If he chooses Justice and Law (I think) then his special abilities exactly mimic those of the paladin. If he chooses others, then his special abilities are very different. This system allows for EVERY god to have holy warriors, not just the goody-goody ones. Want fun? Try a holy warrior who has magic and evil as his domains. Well, ok, maybe that would be a better villain than PC, but you get the point.
Roger Bacon
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