D&D General A History of Violence: Killing in D&D

[Thomas Shey]

Yeah. I kinda hate it.

That's your choice but it isn't "narrative". You might be able to argue its "gamist", but so is experience points and levels in the first place.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

XP levelling is just milestone with a very large number of very tiny milestones, i get 50 milestones from killing that goblin, and 300 milestones for that owlbear, once i reach 2500 milestones i level up

I mean, I know this is a joke, but I'm such an awful pedant I can't fail to point out that it isn't the same thing. Milestones aren't just "less granular". They're milestones - they occur at specific times for specific reasons, usually plot/story/situation-related (or sometimes session-related or the like). That's fundamentally a different concept from something the players could "game", like killing monsters (including "excess" monsters for extra XP).

As I said, experience can serve a purpose if you're trying to incentivize certain types of behavior and players may not otherwise lean into that behavior. Otherwise, its just pointless bookkeeping.

Yeah this is precisely it. Unless XP is encouraging something specific and not common, behaviour-wise, it's just adding numbers for the sake of adding numbers.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Advancing your PC for any reason other than actions that PC has accomplished, even as an abstraction, is either too narrative (based on the "story" you're telling) or too gamist (based on having spent an arbitrary amount of time in play). I want something in the setting, done by the PCs, to hang my hat on.

As I said, in your sessions are the PCs sitting on their hands? No? Then time based is as simulationist as anything an experience system is doing.

 

[Reynard]

I mean, the best uses of milestone leveling (ie, not just "we finished this chapter of AP, guess it's time to level). Curse of Strahd gives (admittedly limited) advice to this effect. Leveling is tied to major accomplishments, which certainly feels (imo) more tangible and less arbitrary than killing enough orcs to roll the counter up.

I am pretty sure @Micah Sweet isn't saying XP can only come from killing orcs. Rather, XP should come from things that the PCs do in the world that come with known (or at least pridactable) XP rewards that make sense within the context of the fictional game world/state. Micah is big on verisimilitude, and that extends to XP, if I understand correctly.

I am largely in agreement. I don't like milestone leveling that is based on progression of a story, because I don't like adventures that are plotted stories. I don't like milestone leveling based on other goal achievement mostly because it isn't granular enough. I am totally fine with XP awards based on goal achievement, along with based on defeating challenges, along with collecting treasure, and so on. That way, players get to choose their risk and reward ratios, which I think is very important for successful campaign play.

 

[Pedantic]

Yeah this is precisely it. Unless XP is encouraging something specific and not common, behaviour-wise, it's just adding numbers for the sake of adding numbers.

I largely agree, but one possible exception might be systems that use XP as an expendable resource, like 3e era magic item creation, though those obviously bring plenty of their own problems.

 

[MGibster]

However, the idea of that type of play has long roots. In the 1970s, it was common to have shopkeepers "statted up" or to have them be, inter alia, polymorphed gold dragons in order to deter players from randomly killing shopkeepers and taking their stuff.

In our campaigns, every barkeep was a retire adventurer who kept a sawed off bastard sword under the bar.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I agree with you there. Nor would a social system need to be used as soon as someone opens their mouth!

Though to be frank, I’ve seen many compelling combat system but very few social system that I liked. It’s hard to strike a balance between « diplomancy » and « just award bonus for good role play »

Well, I'd argue that's because people at least think they understand how a social situation should work out more than most people do a combat situation. They'll get fussy about corner cutting in a way it takes a person heavily involved in combat sports to be about combat systems usually.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Rather, XP should come from things that the PCs do in the world that come with known (or at least pridactable) XP rewards that make sense within the context of the fictional game world/state. Micah is big on verisimilitude, and that extends to XP, if I understand correctly.

There's no inherent verisimilitude to that. This is an opinion that really requires justification in the sense of explaining what could possibly be considered "verisimilitude"?

There's only one genre of fiction I'm aware of where killing things is always going to make you more powerful, and that is, hilariously, Video Game Isekai, which of course, is directly based on MMORPGs, which are inspired by D&D and so in a flat circle. So what is verisimilitude to? It sure isn't fantasy fiction.

I think it's verisimilitude to itself. Which is circular logic of a strange kind.

I am largely in agreement. I don't like milestone leveling that is based on progression of a story, because I don't like adventures that are plotted stories.

Ironically that has more verisimilitude to most fantasy fiction than what you're proposing.

It genuinely sounds like you're video-game-izing D&D. I don't mean that as an insult, but that seems to be the logic you're presenting re: XP.

 

[KYRON45]

When i get tired of the PC's being level 1...i make them level 2. They usually have some miles on them at that point and the experience of those miles is the sum total of all that has happened in that time.

See what i did there...miles mixed with experience......Whatever...my mom thinks i'm funny!!!

 

[Micah Sweet]

XP levelling is just milestone with a very large number of very tiny milestones, i get 50 milestones from killing that goblin, and 300 milestones for that owlbear, once i reach 2500 milestones i level up

Disagree. Why you level up matters. Also, getting xp for individual actions encourages...individual action, although I know that's less relevant in WotC-based versions of the game.