A Kensai's Signature Weapon

[Zelc]

Even if you cap magic weapons at a +10 bonus, the ability is incredibly strong in the mid levels. At level 10, your WBL is 49k. Let's suppose you buy a +3 weapon, then add a +5 from the Signature Weapon ability. Now you have a weapon worth 128k, which is almost 3 times your total WBL. If you instead invested all of it in a +5 weapon (OK, those cost 50k so you can't quite get there), you end up with a +10 weapon worth 200k. That's four times your WBL.

And then you never upgrade your weapon again for the rest of your levels.

 

[Hyperfist]

On the topic of weapon special abilities...


In the DMG it says that the enhancement bonus is limited to +5, and that "A single
weapon cannot have a modified bonus (enhancement bonus plus special ability bonus equivalents) higher than +10." This is exactly the same text as the SRD Magic Weapons entry. A weapon can have special abilities in excess of a +5 equivalent. The random generation tables will also generate these.

I was wondering where my head is...now I know. The thing I was looking at was in the Epic LEvel book on special abilities for Magic items. The thing that was a bit flustering is the part where a normal magic item can not have A special ability higher than +5. I guess that is the interpretation as just one single ability can't be greater than +5 as opposed to all of the weapon or armors special abilities totalling more than +5.

Kind of funky stuff. I know you didn't want to get into Epic weapons..but that is kind of where the restrictions would come into play.

 

[eamon]

The cap is not a hard cap. It's just what level of weapon bonus you can get on your weapon without it being considered an epic weapon, which costs significantly more. However, if you interpret the Kensai ability to add on extra weapon bonuses without regard to existing weapon bonuses, then you can get a +10 weapon from the base weapon, then another +10 worth of bonuses from the Kensai ability, and another +4 from Greater Magic Weapon. Total of +24.

Precisely. The cap is not in the weapon, but in the creation process. It is possible to create epic weapons, but not via the normal non-epic item creation rules. The limitation is not inherent in the weapon, but in the creation rules. These allow a weapon with +1 enhancement bonus, and +9 equivalent abilities. When used on such a weapon, the "Greater Magic Weapon" spell's effect is clear; it improved the enhancement bonus to +5, regardless of the special abilities of the weapon - the spell text outlines it's limitations exactly.

 

[eamon]

If he gets a magic weapon early, why can't he upgrade it. That is the entire purpose of the ability. Just that if he continues to upgrade it. It peaks sooner. That is all.

It balances out in the end. +10 is the most it will go. Even if he has 3 more additional +'s to add on.

It's not a small matter - many people don't play only high levels, where the kensai's ability would reach the +10 limit.

In a entirely reasonable campaign, a kensai player could have a +10 weapon very early if you allow it's class ability to stack, around 11th level or so. That's potentially unbalancing.

 

[Hyperfist]

I guess it comes down to how you interpret the rules. If you interpret those guidelines as only for creation rules..then you can get the +10 weapon early. But if you interpret it as an actual boundary and you can't cross it without going epic...and coming up wiht the costs...Then you have it set.

Depends on your campaign. I am arguing the way my GM would do it. Limit of +10 on teh weapon. And if you hit it with Greater Magic WEapon..the spell would fail. Cause the magic of the weapon is more potent.

Question...does the Greater Magic Weapon stack with the weapons enhancement bonus or does it supplant it? And where is that listed. Thank you.

 

[Zelc]

I guess it comes down to how you interpret the rules. If you interpret those guidelines as only for creation rules..then you can get the +10 weapon early. But if you interpret it as an actual boundary and you can't cross it without going epic...and coming up wiht the costs...Then you have it set.

Even if you put a hard limit of a +10 weapon bonus, taking 5 levels of Kensai will let you have triple your wealth-by-level in equipment at level 10 with your stacking interpretation. Don't you think that's a little... powerful?

Depends on your campaign. I am arguing the way my GM would do it. Limit of +10 on teh weapon. And if you hit it with Greater Magic WEapon..the spell would fail. Cause the magic of the weapon is more potent.

Speaking for myself, I'm more interested in the more generalizable rules. I suspect the OP would feel the same. In that case, a combination of the FAQ clarification (which explicitly endorses the non-stacking interpretation) and issues concerning game balance definitely suggests the Signature Weapon ability does not stack with a weapon's base magic bonuses.

Question...does the Greater Magic Weapon stack with the weapons enhancement bonus or does it supplant it? And where is that listed. Thank you.

I'm not sure where it is, but I'm sure it overlaps.

 

[Hyperfist]

I can see your coming from the wealth by level direction. Makes sense. But then again that depends on your campaign. High Magic...vs. Low magic. Overall, a long term campaign that ability isn't as detrimental cause it pans out. But in a lower level that is true. The ability would be difficult to deal with. AGain..based on the rules, it says that you can stack. Max again dictated by teh creation rules cause you are creating a magic item with the strength of your convictions.

AS for the item becoming possibly a +10 weapon at 10th level. That is kind of crazy. But so is giving a 5th level character a +5 weapon.

 

[Hyperfist]

I can see your coming from the wealth by level direction. Makes sense. But then again that depends on your campaign. High Magic...vs. Low magic. Overall, a long term campaign that ability isn't as detrimental cause it pans out. But in a lower level that is true. The ability would be difficult to deal with. AGain..based on the rules, it says that you can stack. Max again dictated by teh creation rules cause you are creating a magic item with the strength of your convictions.

AS for the item becoming possibly a +10 weapon at 10th level. That is kind of crazy. But so is giving a 5th level character a +5 weapon.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Question...does the Greater Magic Weapon stack with the weapons enhancement bonus or does it supplant it? And where is that listed. Thank you.

It's the basic principle of bonus stacking.

If I have a +2 Enhancement bonus to Strength from Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and a +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength from a Bull's Strength spell, that's not a single +6 Enhancement bonus; it's two Enhancement bonuses which both exist concurrently, and overlap. I get the +2 Enhancement bonus, but it has exactly the same effect as the first +2 of the +4 Enhancement bonus; in other words, the two together have the same effect as one would have. So in essence, only the larger bonus counts, and I gain +4 to my Strength.

Similarly, if I have a sword with a +2 Enhancement bonus, and I cast a Greater Magic Weapon spell on it, granting it a +3 Enhancement bonus, that doesn't create a single +5 Enhancement bonus; rather, it creates an independent Enhancement bonus that overlaps the existing one. A +2 Enhancement bonus and a +3 Enhancement bonus is an effective +3 Enhancement bonus.

Now, I personally subscribe to the reading that a Kensai is limited to imbuing a weapon up to a total market price modifier based on his class level - that is, a 3rd level Kensai with a +1 Flaming sword can make it +2 Flaming or +1 Flaming Keen, since that adds up to an effective +3 - his class level.

But let's say I agreed that he could add an effective +3 to the weapon. If he adds an enhancement bonus, it will overlap with the existing enhancement bonus, not stack - that is, he could make his +1 Flaming sword a [+1] +3 Flaming sword, not a +4 Flaming sword. By adding a +3 Enhancement bonus, it doesn't add on top of the existing +1, but alongside it. His effectively-+2-weapon, by adding +3, has become an effectively-+4-weapon, not +5. On the other hand, since the +1 Flaming weapon already has an enhancement bonus, there's nothing (under the 'add +3' reading) preventing him adding +3 worth of special abilities - a +1 Flaming Keen Frost Shocking sword, perhaps - which gives him an effective +5.

Under this reading, as Zelc says, one might end up with an effective +20 weapon (+1 enhancement bonus, +9 in special abilities, and then add +10 in special abilities with Kensai levels) by Kensai level 10. The enhancement bonus is of course limited to +5, by the Kensai class description, but the special abilities are not so restricted.

But, as I say, I don't subscribe to this reading.

AS for the item becoming possibly a +10 weapon at 10th level. That is kind of crazy. But so is giving a 5th level character a +5 weapon.

Well, remember, Kensai is a Prestige class. So a 5th level Kensai, who has a +5 weapon, must also have at least 5 levels of other classes, since he needed a BAB of +5 before he entered the class.

 

[Hyperfist]

So basically this is to totally disregard what is indicated in the CW. So for all intents and purposes you are starting with a clean MW weapon? Why even bother with the magic item then? Just indicate that it won't alter an already magickal item.