A killer puzzle that makes me want to pull my hair out.
- Thread starter wingsandsword
- Start date
Nebulous
Legend
I can't believe she killed your character after torturing the player for two hours. Puzzles can really suck because of what others have already said, it puts the player's intelligence and skills on the spot, not the imaginary person. I've used puzzles in the past, but never anything that complex. She must have really enjoyed coming up with it and wanted to use it.
The_Gneech
Explorer
What gets me is the "solve or DIE" problem. The worst that should happen for failing to solve a puzzle is that the character doesn't get a bonus -- puzzles are entirely too iffy to actually penalize players for. Everybody is different, and what's "blindingly obvious" to the GM is often "WTF are you talking about?" to the players.
Solve puzzle = get bonus
Fail puzzle = no bonus
not
Solve puzzle = don't get punished
Fail puzzle = DIE
-The Gneech
Solve puzzle = get bonus
Fail puzzle = no bonus
not
Solve puzzle = don't get punished
Fail puzzle = DIE
-The Gneech
Voadam
Legend
The_Gneech said:What gets me is the "solve or DIE" problem. The worst that should happen for failing to solve a puzzle is that the character doesn't get a bonus -- puzzles are entirely too iffy to actually penalize players for. Everybody is different, and what's "blindingly obvious" to the GM is often "WTF are you talking about?" to the players.
Solve puzzle = get bonus
Fail puzzle = no bonus
not
Solve puzzle = don't get punished
Fail puzzle = DIE
-The Gneech
Answer the demon's riddle and you can pass it unmolested.
Fail to answer correctly and you can still fight it or work some other angle to get around it.
Pielorinho
Iron Fist of Pelor
Oy. I hope she learns from this experience. It may be worth taking her out for coffee and talking to her about puzzles.
Keep in mind, though, that this mysterious benefactor is an insane villain a la the Joker. If she's planning on having him be a long-time character, she needs to realize that the players will hate and resent him and regard it as a failure every time they buckle under his desires; unless she herself is a sadist, this vampire is a villain who should be opposable without breaking the campaign.
Last night we finished a mini-campaign full of deadly puzzles. At the end, the entity who created the puzzles congratulated us on getting through them and passing her test and showing our dedication. We were all, "Hold up. First off, you killed one of our friends to test us? What the *@#$?! is wrong with you? Second off, if you want to test someone's dedication, maybe you shouldn't lock them in your complex. We woulda left this hellhole as soon as we could've if you had let us." One of the characters swore that after the entity died, he'd spread tales of her viciousness and evil throughout the land, forever tainting her memory. I don't think the DM was quite prepared for that reaction
.
Puzzles are tricky: what's obvious to one person is completely non-obvious to another. The guidelines given in this thread are very good:
-Puzzles should never be bottlenecks preventing forward progress.
-Puzzles should have clear guidelines, such that when you solve them, you know you've solved them.
-Puzzles should never kill a PC.
-Puzzles should either be closely integrated with the storyline, or they should be self-consciously goofy in a lighthearted game.
Daniel
Keep in mind, though, that this mysterious benefactor is an insane villain a la the Joker. If she's planning on having him be a long-time character, she needs to realize that the players will hate and resent him and regard it as a failure every time they buckle under his desires; unless she herself is a sadist, this vampire is a villain who should be opposable without breaking the campaign.
Last night we finished a mini-campaign full of deadly puzzles. At the end, the entity who created the puzzles congratulated us on getting through them and passing her test and showing our dedication. We were all, "Hold up. First off, you killed one of our friends to test us? What the *@#$?! is wrong with you? Second off, if you want to test someone's dedication, maybe you shouldn't lock them in your complex. We woulda left this hellhole as soon as we could've if you had let us." One of the characters swore that after the entity died, he'd spread tales of her viciousness and evil throughout the land, forever tainting her memory. I don't think the DM was quite prepared for that reaction
.Puzzles are tricky: what's obvious to one person is completely non-obvious to another. The guidelines given in this thread are very good:
-Puzzles should never be bottlenecks preventing forward progress.
-Puzzles should have clear guidelines, such that when you solve them, you know you've solved them.
-Puzzles should never kill a PC.
-Puzzles should either be closely integrated with the storyline, or they should be self-consciously goofy in a lighthearted game.
Daniel
The_Gneech
Explorer
Voadam said:
Yup; in my model, "pass the demon unmolested" is a bonus.
-The Gneech
So ignoring the obvious problems that solve or die puzzles present, I would see the following as a way of combining having the actual player do the solving with using skill checks to give clues. Each successfully more difficult skill check could yield the following clues (note, off the top of my head, so probably could be done better than what I have here):
Check 1: The answer is in the books.
Check 2: Perhaps the answer lies in a specific passage.
Check 3: Perhaps the answer lies in a passage relating to the words you were given.
Check 4: You recall reading a specific passage about Justice from a recent thesis you wrote. It dealt specifically with the justice of imprisoned people.
Check 5: On many occasions, you have done research in the Bible and had to use the index to find verses that dealt with specific topics.
Something like that would allow a player who caught on early to solve the puzzle and feel smart, but give their character's knowledge/skills a chance to guide them to the correct answer. I think if a GM/ST/etc. is going to have a critical puzzle, then having a listing of clues and skill checks required to get them prewritten would be very important for the game.
- FT
Check 1: The answer is in the books.
Check 2: Perhaps the answer lies in a specific passage.
Check 3: Perhaps the answer lies in a passage relating to the words you were given.
Check 4: You recall reading a specific passage about Justice from a recent thesis you wrote. It dealt specifically with the justice of imprisoned people.
Check 5: On many occasions, you have done research in the Bible and had to use the index to find verses that dealt with specific topics.
Something like that would allow a player who caught on early to solve the puzzle and feel smart, but give their character's knowledge/skills a chance to guide them to the correct answer. I think if a GM/ST/etc. is going to have a critical puzzle, then having a listing of clues and skill checks required to get them prewritten would be very important for the game.
- FT
Mark CMG
Creative Mountain Games
wingsandsword said:
The more difficult the puzzle (and/or, possibly, the fewer the solutions), the lower the overall stakes should be. Lowering the stakes can even inculde making a ready source of resurrection available but, be that as it may, I find it unwise to allow a single puzzle to bring a game to a screeching halt, let alone end a campaign (barring it being a tournament, of course).
WayneLigon
Adventurer
wingsandsword said:
That's one reason I don't care very much for puzzles of that sort in game. At least she did give you intelligence rolls; I've been in a couple games where all of a sudden my Int 17 character is handicapped by my Int 10 self
I've never found a good balance to using riddles and puzzles of that sort. I've managed it a couple of times, but made sure that solving the puzzle was not integral to success - it only shortened things or gave a major clue as to what they were dealing with that made things easier.
Nomad4life
First Post
I wouldn’t call this a “bad” puzzle- (The XX:XX format used to tell time is quite similar to the XX:XX format used to track biblical verses, so that would have been my fist area to investigate.)
I would call this a “decent” puzzle really, really, really, poorly executed.
Placing any kind of puzzle as the crux of the entire adventure is ALWAYS poor adventure design (no exceptions), as there is no way to self-assess the difficulty of any riddle you make yourself; the answer will always seem “obvious” to you, as you already know it.
I would call this a “decent” puzzle really, really, really, poorly executed.
Placing any kind of puzzle as the crux of the entire adventure is ALWAYS poor adventure design (no exceptions), as there is no way to self-assess the difficulty of any riddle you make yourself; the answer will always seem “obvious” to you, as you already know it.
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