D&D 3E/3.5 A message to the 3.5ers

[Hairfoot]

I think there is then a case for the relevancy of criticism of 4e (grumbling, griping whatever one calls it). In fact, we may look back on the split in opinion on 4e as one of the new edition's most important aspects if such split remains equally noticeable once 4e sees actual release

I think that's a very good point. Those of us who are currently feeling positive about the new edition may yet be horrified when it is released next year.

Complaints about "firing the customer" sound shrill and petulant right now, but it may well turn out that WotC has decided that many of us - no matter how loyal - aren't in their target market anymore.

 

[Wormwood]

I think that's a very good point. Those of us who are currently feeling positive about the new edition may yet be horrified when it is released next year.

Damn straight. Regardless of all the 'fanboi' crap I get, it is entirely possible for me to be bitterly disappointed with 4e.

But I remain optimistic in the light of available evidence.

 

[pawsplay]

if you plan on sticking with 3.5 and have made that decision, please stop posting in the 4e forum.


Okay, we'll here's a question. 4e talk is relegated to this forum, by rule. If you could only post in this forum if you had something positive to say, that's virtually the same thing as "No criticizing 4e, the edition as a whole, on ENWorld." Because of the existence of this forum, someone who had no intention of switching to 4e would still be forced to post here if they wanted to say something pertaining to 4e. If you wanted to say, "I heard they introduced new feats related to animal husbrandry to 4e, and I don't like that," you could only post that in this forum, whether you intend to adopt 4, stick with 3.5, both, or haven't decided.

While I know people are tired of negativity, it is also the case that many people who have criticisms about 4e stuff have also faced a lot of negativity, everything from being called anti-fun to illiterate to a grognard or holdout. And nobody in the less positive camp has asked people who are more positive to stop posting.

I think anything resembling an intelligent opinion, expressed civilly, has a place. If this forum were specifically "Excited about 4e," you would have a point, and stuff that wasn't excited about 4e could presumably live in another forum. But you can't just have a site and say, "GURPS talk belongs in general, but unfavorable 4e talk does not belong here."

I think it is a responsibility to respect others with different opinions. If you post in this forum, you should post with an open mind. And when someone replies, you should read with an open mind. While some people have said some really negative stuff about 4e and WotC, they don't speak for everyone with reservations about 4e. And when someone characterizes people who are critical of 4e developments in general and tell them they don't belong here, I don't endorse that either.

I'm not too happy about a lot of 4e stuff. Time and again, I find myself on the other side of people who are excited about it. But that doesn't mean I'm here to hate. I have a lifetime of gaming experience that has shaped my tastes, and there are things I would prefer or not prefer about a new edition. But a new edition of D&D is exciting no matter what. Even if I never planned to play a single game of it, I would want to know as much as I could about it and discuss it with other gaming oriented people. So I think there is a place for declared holdouts. But I am not a declared holdout, and in fact, I think there are extremely few declared holdouts in this forum. Most spent their karma on mockery threads, got warned, and haven't been back.

With very few exceptions, people here are excited, even if some are dismayed. And if some 3.5 fans are bitter toward some aspects of 4e, I think that can be forgiven, just as it can be forgiven if some people looking forward to 4e are bitter about some aspects of 3.5.

Good gaming sites are hard to find, and I think we should all try to be excellent to one another.

 

[Kunimatyu]

Wow -- looks like I hit a nerve.

Remember, I'm only saying "don't post unless you're going to add something to the discussion." I really don't expect people to all be ecstatic about 4e all the time -- we've all got things we don't like, wish were done differently etc, and there's no harm in airing that out.

I just don't want to have to wade through a bunch of pithy comments every thread that have no bearing on the particular 4e topic of discussion.

 

[Minicol]

Could we agree to a moratorium on 3.5 grognardry in the 4th Editon forum?

At this point, WotC has sunk too much money into 4th to back out, so you're not going to be able to convince them to abandon 4e or even change it to be more like 3.5 used to be. (There are publishers you might be able to convince, but you'd be better off telling them directly via their forums and emails.)

Moreover, it seems like every single thread has a couple grognards grumbling about 4th edition and saying why they're sticking with 3.5, which is getting very old.

B]

Are you afraid of debate ?

You can't expect everybody to agree with you in life, you know. The world would be such a better place. but it ain't gonna happen.

And besides, there is a solution to your problems : avoid putting more fuel on the fire. saying "I love 4e" is quite OK. Saying "I hate 3.5 and older people" is not very productive either. And makes you just as much of an unpleasant fool as the ones you are criticizing.

Also, since there is a separate forum for 4e, could we have one explicitely for 3.5 ? That might help.

 

[Minicol]

But isn't this true? If you have really decided to stick to 3.5 no matter what there will be for 4th edition, why do you post at all in a 4th edition forum? You would only do this if you really were potentially interested in buying and playing the upcoming rules-set.
QUOTE]

No, you can be interested in how different 4 e will be. And where it draws its inspirations.

After all, you guys keep ranting about new fantasy and such, ... what it's like really ?

 

[Monkey Boy]

Wow -- looks like I hit a nerve.

Remember, I'm only saying "don't post unless you're going to add something to the discussion." I really don't expect people to all be ecstatic about 4e all the time -- we've all got things we don't like, wish were done differently etc, and there's no harm in airing that out.

I just don't want to have to wade through a bunch of pithy comments every thread that have no bearing on the particular 4e topic of discussion.

Maybe you should have worded your original post better. It looked like you were picking a fight.

For what it is worth I will be buying 4E as it's launched but that doesn't mean I wont be speculating and criticizing tidbits as they come along. I feel like a 3.5 grognard (crap its still the current edition) and would like to continue to participate in the 4E forum.

 

[DandD]

Also, since there is a separate forum for 4e, could we have one explicitely for 3.5 ? That might help.

Ehrm, there is this whole " General RPG Discussion"-sub-board dedicated for 3.0 and 3.5-topic talks, you know?

After all, you guys keep ranting about new fantasy and such, ... what it's like really ?

We do? Where? Where are we ranting about this "new fantasy"?

 

[Minicol]

Ehrm, there is this whole " General RPG Discussion"-sub-board dedicated for 3.0 and 3.5-topic talks, you know?

We do? Where? Where are we ranting about this "new fantasy"?

Really ? I took it "general RPG" meant for "every RPG". Not 3.5 or 3.0 explicitely.

Second point, you do. Especially, when you often compare these new fantasy authors to the ones of the "grandfathers", and D&D should follow suit. Who are they exactly ?

 

[DandD]

Well, you can also talk about other game systems, or if you have specific rules question, there are the D&D rules-sub-board, the house-rules-forum, the D20/OGL-boards, and so on. This sub-board was created to concentrate things about the upcoming 4th edition, so that it wouldn't clutter the other message boards, after all.

And once again, where exactly are we (or I?) ranting about "new fantasy"? Which new fantasy authors are compared to the ones of the "grandfathers"? I don't think that Robert E. Howard's work is younger than Tolkien.

Please be specific.