A Paladin Shows Mercy to a Priestess of Orcus?

[Aus_Snow]

Who are these proper authorities? The high-level paladin is an authority.

Quite. . . although it does depend largely on the GM's interpretation of the class.

Which brings me to this point: The Paladin's Code. I don't know if the paladin in question has a personalised code of conduct, or whether it's the generic vague one from the PHB/SRD, or something from somewhere else. It would really help to know that.

Regarding "legitimate authorities", at what point do they cease to be legitimate? When they slip in a few minor ways, or are somewhat ineffective/unfair, or a bit too harsh, or perhaps a bit too lenient? When their policies contradict the Paladin's Code in one or two crucial areas (but are otherwise fine)? When they are Lawful Neutral through and through (i.e. morally ambivalent)? When they have some evil tendencies or serious corruption? When they are Lawful Evil to the core? . . . and so on.

Indeed, how much does your 'average paladin' default to their *personal* code of conduct, and how much to the Law/Church/Temple/Government/etc. of the lend? And what if they move to a radically different land, for that matter?


Anyway, back to the original post. I see no dire issues there, but obviously there's an awful lot I don't know about the characters, the campaign. . . the entire context, really.

 

[pogre]

Sepulchrave II built a considerable portion of his campaign around the redemption of a demon! Not a thing normally capable of redemption, but a spawn of the abyss. I think it made his campaign fascinating.

I think Orcus should take a very personal interest in the loss of the priestess. I love Paladins - pure plot hook goodness!

 

[Ravlek]

Michael,
Are you saying I am totally wrong, and deserve automatons for players for this?

If the entire thing is RP'd well, I think it's great, and in my campaign the paladin would get some RP awards, some serious awards.

I confess to being totally, and completely baffled by your response.

Ravlek

 

[MonkeyDragon]

Like someone else said, if just being around someone who was evil counted as associating, no one would ever get redeemed. The paladin isn't hanging out with the priestess because she likes her, or thinks she'd be a good person to have in the party. She's more like her jailor. And I don't think that the priestess acting on behalf of the party suddenly switches it to an association. As long as the paladin intends his relationship with the priestess to either redeem her or to prevent her from hurting anyone else, I would say that her honor is intact.

I would, in fact, be more inclined to tsk over her honor if she hadn't granted mercy. Not that a paladin should be merciful in every given situation. Sometimes it just isn't practical. But if a foe surrenders, and, helpless, begs for mercy, and the paladin is in a position to grant it, I can think of nothing that would be more in keeping with her honor.

The thing that leaves a bad taste in my mouth is the notion of forcing the priestess to serve her. It seems like she's turning her into a sort of slave, since she has to obey on pain of death, and the paladin benifits from having her around. As a DM, though, I wouldn't have a problem with forcing her to swear to loyalty, as long as the pally didn't treat her like a slave, and used that vow simply as a means of controling her while she's in her custody. She would also have to actively work towards redeeming her.

As far as the legitimate authority thing goes, I don't think there needs to be a conflict. If there is a higher up in her order that the paladin reports to, and she brings the pristess to them, that is fullfilling her honor and code. If they say the priestess needs to die, she should simply explain that she'd given the cleric mercy, and ask them to spare her life. If they judge that she should be executed anyway, it kind of sucks, and the paladin might feel bad, but it's not an affront to her honor. She tried, and she should at least be able to ensure that the priestess gets a swift and painless death. Thats a lot more merciful than being flamestriked to death bit by bit.

I think that it would be wise to make it clear to her that she has X amount of time...your standard year and a day, perhaps...to repent. After that, if she still has evil in her heart, then she gets the sword. She can't expect more than that.

I would rule that if the cleric turned from evil and Orcus to goodness (or at least un-bad neutrality) and a different god, then her soul would go to the good place when she died. If she had actually given or sold her soul to Orcus, then it gets messier, but I would allow for a way to save her. Perhaps...a quest! Wouldn't THAT be an interesting plot twist? The priestess now follows the faith of the paladin, but they know that when she dies, she goes to Orcus for all kinds of torment. Now it's a race against time...and demon prince minions, to find a way to claim her soul for the good god.

Does all this EXACTLY follow the raw for the paladin? I don't know. Does it matter? I don't think so. So often one runs into problems with paladins either trying to weasel out of their obligations when they're inconvienant for the player, following the letter of their code but not the spirit, or getting drunk on richeous might and smiting everything in sight. I think it would be a shame to use the rules to hamstring a character who is actually trying to just do the right thing. Sides, it makes for excellent roleplaying.

 

[Starman]

From post #13 (from Starman to me)



I would like to take this chance to apologize to Starman for not expressing my appreciation for his post earlier.

Starman,
A thousand pardons.

Ravlek

Aw, it's nothing. The internets being what they are, there are bound to be communication SNAFUs.

Cue group hug.

Starman

 

[Starman]

Sepulchrave II built a considerable portion of his campaign around the redemption of a demon! Not a thing normally capable of redemption, but a spawn of the abyss. I think it made his campaign fascinating.

I think Orcus should take a very personal interest in the loss of the priestess. I love Paladins - pure plot hook goodness!

I totally agree. This is the stuff great stories are made of. Take it and run, SHARK!

Starman

 

[Thotas]

As much potential as this situation has, I gotta say ... Monkey Dragon, you've pretty much given the suggestion that hits my reason for playing this game on the head. A character driven mess that is bound to have an action packed solution is my idea of a good game. I can envision the "You've redeemed me in this world -- can you follow through and help me save myself for the next?" hook you've proposed, and I'd love to bite it (or be the DM when someone else does). As the PCs get closer and closer to the goal, the BBEGod sends more and more of their signature minions to gun for the NPC, because once that happens there's no going back for the soul. Final confrontation is with BBEGod's Aspect and Friends Thereof.

Too bad if I tried to set up the "Mercy!" scene with my current group, they'd just want to know if that meant they got an Attack of Opportunity.

 

[MonkeyDragon]

As much potential as this situation has, I gotta say ... Monkey Dragon, you've pretty much given the suggestion that hits my reason for playing this game on the head. A character driven mess that is bound to have an action packed solution is my idea of a good game. I can envision the "You've redeemed me in this world -- can you follow through and help me save myself for the next?" hook you've proposed, and I'd love to bite it (or be the DM when someone else does). As the PCs get closer and closer to the goal, the BBEGod sends more and more of their signature minions to gun for the NPC, because once that happens there's no going back for the soul. Final confrontation is with BBEGod's Aspect and Friends Thereof.

Too bad if I tried to set up the "Mercy!" scene with my current group, they'd just want to know if that meant they got an Attack of Opportunity.

Heh heh. Actually, as soon as I finished posting, I looked back at that suggestion and thought. "Holy Moly! This is exactly the sort of thing I need for the lawful-good-destroyer-of-evil type in my game! I had an idea and I didn't even know it!" I've been thinking about what to throw at this character for days (the player tends to mentally fidgit, often at the other players, when he doesn't have something to do) and it didn't click until just then. Thank god for 2am on the boards!

 

[Thotas]

If I were living "near Detroit" I'd be asking if I could join the game!

 

[Lord Pendragon]

I would, in fact, be more inclined to tsk over her honor if she hadn't granted mercy. Not that a paladin should be merciful in every given situation. Sometimes it just isn't practical. But if a foe surrenders, and, helpless, begs for mercy, and the paladin is in a position to grant it, I can think of nothing that would be more in keeping with her honor.

I can. In this situation, my paladin would grant his foe the mercy of an honorable death. I'm sorry, but I stringently disagree with those who believe that a request for mercy must always be answered, or the paladin is somehow being dishonorable. When you engage in battle with a paladin, you have entered into mortal combat. If you lose the battle, you don't get to weasel out of the penalty by crying out for mercy.

And let's not forget, unless, as Ravlek mentions, the paladin's god is St. Mercy, there are other virtues that must factor into the paladin's decisions. Such as justice. Where is the Justice for the dozens, perhaps ever hundreds, of victims of the evil cleric, if the paladin stays his hand? What about the divine wrath of God, that a paladin is charged with delivering upon the wicked?

Certainly, a paladin can and should be encouraged to redeem where he can, to show Mercy where it would serve the cause of Good. But to claim that any villain can escape righteous justice by crying out for Mercy is, again, IMO a fallacy.

The War Against Evil is not an English tourney between fellow knights of Christendom, where honor demands that mercy asked is mercy received. It's a battle between the righteous and the wicked, and the righteous are doomed to failure if they never actually take down the wicked. Mercy where it is feasible, Justice and Righteous Wrath where it is not. (And by feasible I don't mean convenient but rather, has a decent chance of effecting actual change.)

A refusal to offer mercy to a foe who has surrendered is an evil act

Again, I disagree. I addressed why in my previous post, and have elaborated in this one. This isn't a tourney between knights. Justice and Righteous Wrath are paladin virtues just as strong as Mercy and Compassion. The Forces of Evil do well to fear paladins for a reason. They relentlessly pursue Evil's destruction. They do not relentlessly pursue Evil's destruction...unless Evil asks them not to.

Or are you going to argue that if an evil PC joins the party the paladin instantly loses his paladinhood?

It'd be a strong argument, since it'd be true. Assuming the paladin knows the other PC is evil, of course.

Pendragon,

Pretty much nailed the "good side" of the coin for me. But evil side, Orcus is pissed and thus I see a very bad end for this little traitor.

That becomes the paladin+party's struggle. To keep the forces of Orcus from exacting revenge on the turncoat priestess.