A Paladin Shows Mercy to a Priestess of Orcus?

[painandgreed]

Sounds interesting. IMHO, giving mercy was an option that the paladin could make. in choosing so, then trying to redeem the NPC would not be considered "associating" in the context that would mean the loss of powers. She is essentially a prisoner and if such meant associating, then you could never have a paladin work in a prison or as a member of the city guard or government when the city hasn't been purged of all evil. Associating in this context is more like a mutual agreement to work towards eachothers goals.

That being said, I'd turn this into a large contest between the paladin and the cleric to see who could convert the other. The paladin will attempt to redeem the cleric, and quite possibly the cleric sees her only possible (or even desired) revenge is to cause the paladin to fall. What the paladin does to try and convert the cleric would be interesting and most likly would involve lots of role playing as the paladin tries to get the cleric to study her personal beleifs and realize there is a better way. Lots of this will depend on why she is evil. Is she simply an evil person or was she raised in an evil society and has never known anything better. Redeeming her may be as simple as showing her there is a better way and she can let go of all her hate and fear (without her thinking it is all just a trick). If nothing else, she might be convinced to change over to a good or neutral god whose beleifs fall in line with her own.

On her part, the easiest thing for her to do is simply to do whatever the paladin says and hope he starts using her as free labor. Then the paladin would fall if he never gets around to trying to redeem her and just uses her as extra help. Asking her to user her cleric powers for just about anything would cause the paladin to fall automatically I would assume. If it can be arranged so that the paladin has to ask the cleric to use her powers (assuming she still has them) to save himself or somebody else, such an act of a paladin requesting a cleric of Orcus to use their powers would probably result in immediate fall, but would the paladin consider falling worth what could be saved by such an action? So long as she acts subserviant and only talks about her beleifs if the paladin asks, the paladin would probably never recognise it as an attempt at conversion as she tries the Socratic method to have the paladin find the error in her ways.

It sounds like a long drawn out role playing segment of a contest of wills between the two. The loser being the first one to grow too comfortable with the current arrangement and to stop trying to activily convert the other (at least, that's how I'd do it if I was the DM). Even then, I don't know if I could go with the immediate redemption or corruption of either one. both of them have a lifetime of good and bad deeds that are not going to be instantly forgotten. Truely going over to the other side would require lots of work and deeds to make up for past actions before they start looking at drifting to a different place in the outer planes after death.

Editted to add:
Another thing is that I would say that by granting her mercy, the paladin has accepted responsiblity for her and would be held accountable for any actions the cleric prefroms later. If the cleric escapes and commits more evil acts, it would probalby cause the fall of the paladin and only be redeemable after she has killed the cleric.

 

[MonkeyDragon]

I can. In this situation, my paladin would grant his foe the mercy of an honorable death.

In my opinion, this would count as granting mercy. If her crimes have warrented a death sentance no ifs ands or buts, then all he'd really be able to do would prolong the inevitable anyway. He might not be able to spare her life, but he CAN make her death as painless as possible. So tell her flat out. "I'll accept your surrender, but the only mercy I can offer you is a swift and painless end." She may get up and keep fighting, or she may accept the terms- afterall, a coup de grace to the neck isn't as bad as getting hacked to bits. If she accepts, give her a moment to repent her sins if she wants to (it doesn't hurt you to offer, and she only hurts herself if she refuses or lies) do the deed, then bless the body and burn it to keep her from rising as something unpleasant. You probably didn't save her soul, but if she was so far gone that you couldn't spare her life and try to redeem her, then there was probably no way to save it at all. At least you gave her some dignity as a sentient being.

 

[Michael Morris]

Michael,
Are you saying I am totally wrong, and deserve automatons for players for this?



I confess to being totally, and completely baffled by your response.

Ravlek

I confess to skimming over the thread instead of reading it thouroughly at 3 in the morning - pay no attention to my babbling.

 

[Ravlek]

Stories of redemption are some of the most powerful and moving in literature. Return of the Jedi anyone?

I would just like to mention that my 14 year old daughter found this highly amusing. (she kept giggling something about literature)

To use your own phrase;

Michael, you are so wrong on so many levels it isn't funny.

 

[mmadsen]

Lord Have Mercy; What About Lord Vader? addresses the nature of mercy and justice in a gamer-friendly manner. Its main point:

Mercy is not a good unto itself. Mercy is a counterbalance, a brake against justice as it brushes up against the edge of vengeance. Evil wreaks harm that ripples far, far beyond the intended harm of the evil act itself. Justice permits the doer of evil to be held accountable for every iota of harm that ensues as a result of the evil act, and that reckoning can be terrible indeed. Mercy requires men to punish evil with only the minimum degree of punishment and retribution consistent with justice, so that repentance and reconciliation may restore the evildoer to society, and so that the vengeful spirit of victims may be allayed. But notice: mercy requires the minimal degree of punishment consistent with justice.​

 

[Plane Sailing]

Ravlek, I notice that Michael basically apologised for upsetting you, and 17 minutes later you poke fun at him? Bad form. You might want to edit that post a little...

Regards

 

[sword-dancer]

Regarding "legitimate authorities", at what point do they cease to be legitimate? .

Mostly by intend, but if any law stand in the way of the pallys code and duty it wouldn`t be legitimate in this case.
Was this law written with good intent, maybe it is outdated(necessary and beneficial in another time) or the motivation, spirit of the law is cntradicterd and so misused, to put it short aRight of Home, ownership freedom and so on don`t stop a pally a second if you misuse it for evil deeds.

Anyway, back to the original post. I see no dire issues there, but obviously there's an awful lot I don't know about the characters, the campaign. . . the entire context, really

AFAIK Pallys in SHARK s campaign are judge Jury and executioner.

"Mercy!"

If the Paladin had taken the woman's head after she asked for mercyhe would lose his paladin-ness. Hands down. .

I consider it`the right of the pally to spend the privilege of the gift of mercy whe he sees it fit, not the right anyone has to ask from him.

Where the Player screwed up was that he made her vow to be a person the group would drag along with them and work with

. No!
1 She should be reedeemed, what would it be for apally who grants mercy to her body but let her soul rest in the dark?
2 Katharsis, the chance after she has reedeemed to cleanse herself from her guilt, so she could live without the pain of guilt.

The Paladin should step forward and say- "she asked for mercy, I granted it. I do not deny her crimes, however I ask that her life be spared for keeping of her word."

No, I granted her mercy, by my word so you don`t`ve the right to punish her.

The authorites can then nod and take the woman's head or place her in prison, the Paladin showed mercy and did what he could to spare her.

For this I would take his pallyness, granting mercy and breaking his word.

I

The War Against Evil is not an English tourney between fellow knights of Christendom, where honor demands that mercy asked is mercy received. It's a battle between the righteous and the wicked, and the righteous are doomed to failure if they never actually take down the wicked. Mercy where it is feasible, Justice and Righteous Wrath where it is not. (And by feasible I don't mean convenient but rather, has a decent chance of effecting actual change.)Again, I disagree. I addressed why in my previous post, and have elaborated in this one. This isn't a tourney between knights. Justice and Righteous Wrath are paladin virtues just as strong as Mercy and Compassion. The Forces of Evil do well to fear paladins for a reason. They relentlessly pursue Evil's destruction.

Could I use this as Sig?

 

[Ravlek]

Plane Sailing,

Sorry but I honestly don't see it as an apology. Over 5000 posts, skims over a thread at 3 in the morning, then makes a lengthy post with rude/snide comments directed at me. Strikes me more a lame excuse.

Question for you; I reported his post about 12 hours ago, no response from a moderator until now. Why is that?

My apologies to Shark for the hi-jack.

 

[Nightfall]

Lord Pendragon,

Uhm well the paladin MIGHT try but some how I'm not sure how firmly committed the rest of the party is. I mean if one's a N druid and another, a CN rogue, they just might say "Hey let's cut our losses and ditch the traitor. I mean no reason to trust her." Just saying.

But if the paladin wants to "save her" her call. Me, I'd just expect much death. Orcus has died and come back once already. I don't see how a paladin, no matter the level, could stop him and his forces IF he's that bound and determined. And believe me, I'm sure he is.

 

[sword-dancer]

And, If Orcus plyed this game, would the pally god sit on the sideline and enjoy the show or would this god stood by his own?