A Particular Deity

[the Jester]

In my campaign, clerics can choose from a list of a few specific philosophies, each of which sets your domain choices. Other philosophies just don't have enough energy to power spells.

(Plus gods and stuff, of course.)

 

[Tatsukun]

Right now we are playing a homebrew in which the most people don't belive in gods. Clerics claim they get magic from gods, but most people don't belive them becasue other people can cast those spells to w/o a religion.

It has worked well, it has forced a lot of great role-playing when the cleric of Pelor really tries to convince the duke why he can't (or in the eyes of the duke won't) cast evil spells.

To me, not having a god releases you from all those rules, but at the same time, you don't have a support system of churches ready to help you.

It has worked so far.

The brunt of it is that if you can make up a god, and give him/her any domains you want, why not just let a PC have no god.

We even have a 'divine' caster (in my game, a 'runic caster') who is very much against organized religion. He is totally chaotic and hates anything that smacks of organized churches. This PC simply would not be possible w/o the 'no god it ok' rule.

-Tatsu

 

[dcollins]

Since there is not much information on that, my players have taken this to mean that if your cleric worships, lets say "goodness" instead of a specific god, that you can then use any domain from the entire listing of domains. This seems odd to me, because it is as if you are penalizing clerics that do worship a god.

I agree with many other posters, it simply shouldn't be allowed. I think you'll find the first sentence in that section more plainly asserting, "Choose a deity for your cleric." As DM you should take that rule as primary.

Unfortunately, WOTC feels compelled to put this "no deity out" in the rules for those play groups who find talking about fictional gods to be unacceptable.

 

[Li Shenron]

By the PHB it's a perfectly legal option for a Cleric. But it has to make sense in your campaign, and forbidding the godless clerics is the most common choice IMO. I think the idea is simply to keep an open door for campaigns where the pantheon is not so simply designed as it is in core D&D, as an example in the Book of the Righteous there is the Great Church who worships all gods at the same time (well, in BotR all "gods" are good, and their evil conterpart is the fiends, which are out of the Great Church). Clerics of something along that line are specifically allowed by the godless option in the PHB, if a DM wants this different kind of religion for his setting.

It should be clear to the DM if a player wants this option only because he likes 2 domains but there's no printed deity to grant them both at the same time. But also, it wouldn't be bad if the player simply came up with an idea for a NEW deity to grant him them.

(As a minor note, remember that the alignment domains can be taken only by a cleric of that alignment, and it's possible to be the same for racial domains in FRCS, IIRC)

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Personally, I equal "cleric" to "worshipper of a deity". I wouldn't play a cleric who has no patron deity, unless it's a very weird setting and/or character concept. And since I play FR when I play classic fantasy, the issue never arises, since in the FR you have to have a patron deity to cast any form of divine magic (and others are also very strongly advised to worship a deity, too). The other campaign settings I play in often have other belief systems (in Midnight, there's only one god available, and he's Evil; in Rokugan, a combination of philosopy, ancestor worship and the worship of spirits is in place; in Ravenloft, you might think you worship gods but you really only worhip the Dark Powers)

If I made a homebrew world, I'd probably require clerics to have a patron deity, too, or maybe a philosophy if they don't like any of the gods much (and this will still grant access to a small selection of domains)

 

[Deadguy]

I always find it odd that people who are quite happy to have only vague notions of what 'Magic' means in a setting are so quick to decry 'Clerics of No God' as being arrant nonsense. Perhaps it's a cultural thing, but to think that the Universe only provides Power to Clerics who have a God on the other end of the Prayer Cable are being... narrow in their thinking. I can accept that a particular campaign might not include it, but many posters go beyond that to 'this is impossible! how could it ever work!' Not every faith is a mirror of Greek/Egyptian polytheism! And if Good and Evil are real forces, why not other things too?

That said, I agree that a DM needs to adjudicate what is appropriate. And the player neds to consider what such a cleric believes, which will help indicate the appropriate Domains.

 

[Li Shenron]

Personally, I equal "cleric" to "worshipper of a deity".

I wouldn't say that, KaeYoss... one thing is to worship, another is to actively serve a cult and possibly increase the number of worshipers.

However, your view is perfectly in line with the base D&D idea that Clerics are granted powers from their deity. By this view, a godless cleric should simply have no divine powers.

If the DM simply says that a cleric takes his powers from his own faith (whether he believes they come from an actual god or not), it doesn't matter anymore if his deity really exists or not.

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edit...

I actually think that the idea may be a balance issue, divine casters usually have an easier time (they can wear armor, they know all spells they can cast) and stressing the fact that their deity may cut off their magic powers if they "misbehave" could be an attempt to balance them against arcane casters. Removing this limitation can make a cleric too easy, and perhaps this is the reason why this is a constant thing in D&D books?

However, I think the open option of deities not related to a single deity is important for the DMs who want a different approach to religion in their settings. Even if the options immediately let us think of clerics of NO deities, I think its best application is for clerics of MORE deities, like an Elf cleric of the whole elven pantheon.

If the option allows a player to play a cleric with no moral bias (imagine a Neutral cleric of no deities... what the hell is he? ), well that's not much a "cleric" after all, since being extremely biased towards something IS being a cleric at all, and the player is simply roleplaying very badly...

 

[Destil]

I actually think that the idea may be a balance issue, divine casters usually have an easier time (they can wear armor, they know all spells they can cast) and stressing the fact that their deity may cut off their magic powers if they "misbehave" could be an attempt to balance them against arcane casters. Removing this limitation can make a cleric too easy, and perhaps this is the reason why this is a constant thing in D&D books?

If memory serves one of the basics of that the designers in 3E had in mind in 3E was that you don't balance game rules benifits with roleplaying restrictions... [At least I know a few designers have said so in the past. The restrictions are there for flavor and to add to roleplaying, not because they check things that are overpowered]

 

[Li Shenron]

If memory serves one of the basics of that the designers in 3E had in mind in 3E was that you don't balance game rules benifits with roleplaying restrictions... [At least I know a few designers have said so in the past. The restrictions are there for flavor and to add to roleplaying, not because they check things that are overpowered]

Ok, but you have to agree that there are core rules about divine casters which refers to their behaviour: inability to cast spells with opposite alignment, the Atonement spell, reference to losing divine spells and other special abilities, oaths of not using specific equipment...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I wouldn't say that, KaeYoss... one thing is to worship, another is to actively serve a cult and possibly increase the number of worshipers.

What I meant is "cleric always means worshipper of a deity" (but not every worshipper of a deity is a cleric - especially not in the FR, where the vast majority of the inhabitants have a patron deity)