A proposal for an alternate form of level draining

[Edena_of_Neith]

We know that in previous editions, if a wraith struck you, you automatically lost 1 level with no save allowed (whether MR or SR helped was always a matter of debate.)
In 3E, it got more complicated, but it was still scary.

I'd make it a wee bit scarier.

In 4E, if that wraith hits you or the succubus drains you (no save, no SR, but Amulets of Life Protection and the like would work, along with specialized forms of SR), then you lose the level AND the wraith gains the level.
The wraith gains an extra HD, any hit points you lost from the level drain, any BAB bonus, any spells or spell knowledge (meaning it becomes a 1st level spellcaster or gains a level in spellcasting), any feats or skills lost, and any and all special somethings you gained in a non-standard way during that level (you gained dragonsbreath during the time you last leveled? Well, you no longer have it ... but the wraith now does.)

Undead who drain 2 levels per hit, would gain 2 HD and 2 sets of hit points, and 2 levels of spellcaster or fighter, and two levels of abilities, and so on.

In addition, any undead worth it's negative energy should strike with BOTH hands, and EACH hand should have the level draining capability (thus, two hits from a spectre means 4 levels lost, and the spectre gains 4 levels.)
Since undead can be classed, and could have - say - 5 attacks in a round (not counting what Haste will do for them, and a wizardly wraith would definitely Haste itself) they could drain your 10th level PC to -1 levels in a single round.

Your PC dies instantly, and a round later, reanimates as the type of undead that killed him or her, under it's control (invariably to attack the party, of course.)
And undead, have NO limit on the number of undead they can control. Why, were it not for metaphorical limitations (such as a wraith being tied to a particularly area to haunt) undead might destroy the world.

In other words, when an undead is coming, you should be afraid. Very afraid. Even with the nice cleric to help you, you should be afraid. Perhaps so afraid you even pray to that cleric's deity, before the fight, that his or her power is sufficient to save you.

I am totally serious about this. (So what happens if you don't have a cleric? Better hope the wizard is competent. If he or she is not, better hope those distance weapons work better than you thought. Because running is a real lousy option ... the undead can run faster than you, the undead never tire or sleep, and an undead bent on killing ... does not stop until the deed is done. Besides, if you run and leave the town defenseless, the undead kills defenseless people, gains levels, and then if you had a problem before, now it's an epic situation.)

EDIT: Of course, sunlight tends to make most level draining undead powerless, and they will not come out in the sunlight. So, while the sun is up, there is nothing to worry about. But, as they say, all good things come to an end, and when twilight descends nastiness begins.

Yours Truly
Edena_of_Neith

 

[Plane Sailing]

picky-picky I know, but in 3e wraiths don't drain levels - they drain CON

 

[shilsen]

Too powerful an ability, would require way too much bookkeeping to run, and raises too many weird questions about such undead and their effect on the campaign world (like what happens when a single wraith enters a village and emerges with a few hundred levels and a few hundred subordinate wraiths).

In short, that would be remarkably poor design.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I do not believe undead should be given free rein. They should not have the ability to use their powers as they please.
After all, one of the classic conceptions is that being undead is a curse, that it is an undesirable condition, that those who are undead seek escape or release from their condition.
In other words, undead would never look upon their condition as PCs might look upon their capabilities as characters. And PCs, generally, would not want to be undead (exceptions exist ... and sometimes, they have no choice ala Ravenloft's Requiem: The Grim Harvest.)

If the PCs have disturbed a wraith, and this wraith is able to pursue them to the local town, then a special condition must have been created by the PCs to allow this ... otherwise, the wraith probably would have gone to town and destroyed it long ago, right?
Thus, the PCs, in their greed for gold and lust for glory, have disturbed something best left undisturbed, and if they do not do something about it they will (in effect) be responsible for the deaths of many innocent people. (That's the risk you take when adventuring ...)

If the party is good, undoubtedly they will rise to the heroic challenge.
If the party is neutral, they won't want the wrath of the populace down upon them (after it is discovered they started the havoc.)
If the party is evil, they may attempt to negotiate with the undead ... only to find out the undead does not *care* about such things as alignment, bribes, allies, or anything else ... except the slow deaths of the PCs. If the evil party allows the undead to kill the townspeople and become epic, they will discover they have an epic foe AND a wrathful populace to face, and no allies or help.

Obviously, if we give undead the kind of power I am proposing, they must have limitations (through fluff concepts and hard rules both) to prevent them from quickly becoming dominant in the campaign world.
For the envious PC who wants to mimick such abilities (through magic) to 'get rich quick' in levels, the consequences of such use of magic should be clear. Yes, it is possible to cheat the system, and yes, the consequences are there (just look at Dark Sun.)

 

[Paraxis]

Why not just do extra hit point damage that tranfers to the attacker?

Wraith/Vampire/Succubus whatever hits you for X(normal claw/slam damage)+2d6(drain) you take a bunch of damage and the bad guy heals for some, it's immediate it's simple and it's light on the book keeping. If you die from hit point loss due to natural attacks from these creatures then maybe you do come back as some sort of undead thing.

Level loss and ability drain do require alot of bookkeeping and adjustments in the middle of battle. If anything do the above and say a touch of these creatures also checks against your Fort Def and if it's higher you are cursed with a -1 to all checks for the encounter, each hit is cummulative.

 

[Frostmarrow]

I'm with you. I think it's a good idea. The 3E way is too much like mild chili.

 

[lukelightning]

I think the energy drain thing was originally a way emulate the witch king's attack on Frodo. You get hit and it starts to suck your life and even if you survive you feel the wound for virtually the rest of your life.

It's a fine ability... for the 9 supreme dark lords of the realm. Not for Creepy McWight and his fourteen friends in the local dungeon.

 

[Dragonblade]

HELL NO!! NO MORE LEVEL DRAIN!!

It is the most ridiculously broken, unfun game mechanic ever designed. It should die, then have its throat cut and be buried face down just to make sure its dead.

The single BEST thing I have heard about 4e is that level drain is gone. Good riddance.

 

[Anthtriel]

In short, that would be remarkably poor design.

I'd have to agree with that.

It would be weird if one undead, after killing 100 random living beings, suddenly becomes more powerful than the gods themselves.

What I could see would be like this: "Whenever this creature kills a living being of equal or greater Level, it permanently gains one additional Level."

Alternatively, the ability you proposed, with an upper limit or a relatively short duration. And cut down in bookkeeping, of course.


If Undead would work like you propose, then you would have to be bound to a very small area. Give them free movement of any kind, and the intelligent undead would take over the world in a matter of weeks or months.

Ah, and naturally, permanent Level Drain is a pretty bad mechanic to begin with, no real reason to keep it around in the first place, Hit Point drain works better most of the time.

 

[Dragonblade]

Now that this thread has been moved to House Rules, safely away from any unholy influence on 4e designers, you can ignore my previous comments.

I don't care what people do in their games as long as level drain is no longer a core rule.