A question about magic item creation?

From Monte Cook, the man who wrote the DMG section on creating Magic Items :

How do you figure Market Value?

That's really the trick, isn't it? Some days I look at Table 8-40 on page 242 of the DMG and wish it wasn't there at all. At these times, I wish the rule was simply, “Match your new item as closely as you can with an existing item, then give it a similar price.” That's really the ultimate pricing rule. It can get you into trouble (as it did with me and boots of striding and springing), but generally it will give you fewer headaches than using the table. At the very least, we should have called the table "Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values" rather than "Calculating Magic Item Gold Piece Values."

But to answer the question we must discuss something about the question itself. The "you"in "How do you figure Market Value?" should ALWAYS be the DM. It should always be the last thing that's done in the process. Do not -- I repeat -- do not allow players to look at that table and see what they can make for X amount of gold. This isn't Champions or GURPS (see below).

So, you have an item either that you have created and want to put into your campaign, or that a player has proposed that he would like his character to make. If it's a straightforward item that's a potion, scroll, wand or staff, just use the formulas provided. Keep your eyes open, but feel confident that you can trust the system to handle those without a problem. But if it's not a straightforward item, be careful. Find a formula on Table 8-40 if you can, and see what the price gets you. Look on the charts at similarly priced items. Is this item of comparable use and power? If the answer is no, adjust the price until it is in range with items of approximately the same use and power.

Avoid the "disadvantage trap." That is to say, don't assume that, because an item has some sort of drawback, its price should go down. For example, say the elf Vexander makes a staff whose spells can be accessed only by elves. That might seem like a limitation. But really, it's not -- it doesn't affect Vexander in any way. In fact, if some non-elf steals it, the thief can't use it against him. It's actually a benefit. And even if an item really does have some true disadvantage, or has a cursed effect as described in the DMG (starting on page 231), don't discount the price too much; 10% is probably fine.

The most important thing to remember is, Table 8-40 doesn't determine prices. It suggests them. Don't say, "Wow, these shoes of continual improved invisibility sure are cheap." Do say, "Hmm, these formulas don't work when it comes to spells like improved invisibility." When someone asks me, "Can I really make an item that will cast cure light wounds at will, activated by a command word, for only 900 gp?"I now reply, "Only if your DM isn't paying attention."

The main problem is that spells aren't balanced in the same way as magic items. A single casting of improved invisibility, for example, might be equal to a single casting of locate creature. But an item that allows you to use improved invisibility at will is not equal to one that lets you use locate creature at will, because a character wants to cast improved invisibility numerous times a day, every day. Not so with locate creature. Spells are balanced because of their durations, and because casters only have access to a limited number of uses in a given day. Take those away, as with a constant effect in a magic ring, and the magical effects on the game need rebalancing.

The other problem is that sometimes there isn't a good spell equivalent for an item, or sometimes the closest spell equivalent is too low or too high a level for what the item does.

Someone who has Tome and Blood handy - it has more to say on the topic, doesn't it? IDHTBIFOM.

-Hyp.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Hypersmurf said:


No, it's not - Manyshot is a Standard Action, not an Attack Action, and Shot on the Run works with an Attack Action.

You can't use Shot on the Run to move, cast Ray of Frost, and move... neither can you move, Manyshot, move.

-Hyp.

Now we're getting into semantics, especially since the phrase "attack action" isn't really properly defined.

If you claim that multishot is NOT an attack action, then it also happens to negate cover bonuses, along with any other modifiers to an attack roll:
from the SRD

ATTACK ROLL MODIFIERS
Use these adjustments whenever a character is making a melee, ranged, full, or other type of attack action.

Table: Attack Roll Modifiers
...
....

You can't cast spells with shot on the run because it specifies that you must take an attack action with a missile weapon. Missile weapons ARE clearly defined.
 

He adds:

If I wanted to make an item that allowed me to have stoneskin at will, gave me Great Cleave for free, and boosted my Tumble bonus by +10, but only worked at night and on holidays, how much would it cost?

Whatever your poor, overworked, beleaguered DM says it should cost, bless his soul.

Since a caster with the Create Wondrous Item feat can create items that perform the same function as potions, wands, rods, and staffs (ointment of cure light wounds -- a la Keoghtom's -- instead of potion of cure light wounds, stone of lightning bolt instead of wand of lighting bolt, etc.) why would anyone, under standard book rules, ever take anything other than the Create Wondrous Items feat?

Here's where the DM's fiat comes in. The general rule is that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck. If a player wants to make an item using Craft Wondrous Item, but it's really more appropriate to a ring or a wand (in the DM's opinion), the DM should rule that it must be the item that he feels is most appropriate.

If a DM wants to be flexible, he should go the other way. Allow a cleric to make her holy symbol into a wand using Craft Wand, or a sword into a staff using Craft Staff. I know there are lots of wondrous items in the DMG that serve as bad examples, because they really should be a wand, a potion, or a rod. Mea culpa.

-Hyp.
 

Also: very minor mathematical nitpick. Minimum cost to add Heavy Fortification to armor is 35,000 gp. (6^2*1000 = 36,000. 1^2*1000 = 1000. 36,000 - 1000 = 35,000, not the 34,000 as Hypersmurph posted. Sorry.)

Edit: Beaten to quoting Monte. Drat.
 
Last edited:

If you claim that multishot is NOT an attack action, then it also happens to negate cover bonuses, along with any other modifiers to an attack roll:

That's a table of "Attack Roll modifiers", and Manyshot uses an attack roll.

Those modifiers apply to a Charge, which uses an attack roll, but a Charge is not (well, not in the SRD - I can never remember how it's defined in the PHB :) ) defined as an "attack action".


I don't allow someone to Spring Attack with a Charge, because Charge is not an attack action. I don't allow someone to Shot on the Run with Manyshot, because Manyshot is not an attack action.

But they both use Attack Rolls, so the table labelled "Attack Roll Modifiers" applies.

-Hyp.
 

Oh, and Loki1Loki1 - the magic item pricing 'rules' have been repeatedly said to be only guidelines.

If you want to take them as ironclad rules, then the rules specifically say that the alignment of an item is identical to that of the creator, and every other feature of an intelligent item is generated randomly.

The baseline for these boards is that pricing magical items is purely up to the DM, except in cases where the item has been fully priced beforehand.

The pricing of powers which isn't on any list is entirely in the domain of the DM, even if there IS a comparable item in the DMG, and even if we're taking the rules as written as gospel.

As to kreynolds ridiculous price for the initial item - sorry, the x10 is... nonsensical.

Especially since the caster could simply start with a base item, and add powers as he goes. At what point does one power suddenly cost x10? If you're really going to do that, why don't I just go and make half-a-dozen slotless items?
 



Hypersmurf said:


That's a table of "Attack Roll modifiers", and Manyshot uses an attack roll.

Which makes manyshot a "melee, ranged full, or other type of attack action", the actions which are listed as being affected by the table according to the text immediately preceding it.

I have no problem with someone charging and using spring attack. The only difference between that and normally using spring attack is some increased distance and a +2 attack roll/-2 AC. They've gotten a really limited benefit for all the feats they've spent.

The problem here is that you cannot actually use the rules themselves to deny the use of those two feats together. Which means you really have to justify yourself some other way. In the case of manyshot and charge combined with shot on the run and spring attack respectively, I can't think of any justification - there's no real reason to deny their combined use if you allow the use of the actions themselves. It's not that manyshot is taking more time, it's not that it unbalances the game (any more than the feat itself does), it's not that it seems to be physically impossible. It's just that you don't like it. That's fine. House rule against it. Don't say "because the rules say so", becuase that's just not true.

(edit)- just realised why most characters can't spring attack/charge: A charge has to be in a straight line, directly towards the opponent being charged. Which means that to spring attack away, you have to keep moving through him, so you have to have some tumble skill as well. That's just such a cool image, I couldn't possibly deny a player the ability to do it.
 
Last edited:

I have no problem with someone charging and using spring attack. The only difference between that and normally using spring attack is some increased distance and a +2 attack roll/-2 AC. They've gotten a really limited benefit for all the feats they've spent.

There's also the "all movement for the round in a straight line" problem to be resolved, of course.

Don't say "because the rules say so", becuase that's just not true.

In this case, I disagree.

-Hyp.
 

Remove ads

Top