A question about magic item creation?

[Darklone]

Can someone tell me how you can have 60000XPs to pay for such items without going down a level (what's not allowed)?

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Ahem.



Well, I don't allow Tumble with Charge either, because a Charge, in my opinion, is not "normal movement" - ie, not a move or double move action.

-Hyp.

I know its from the creator, but I was thinking that would make more sense for 3.5. 3e doesn't seem to make the distinciton between standard and attack action in the way he's suggesting. Attack actions just being a type of standard action. In 3.5 they seem to be separating tthings so their is an attack aciton and a separate standard aciton, which will limit not only manyshot ut also haste under its new revised form.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

Can someone tell me how you can have 60000XPs to pay for such items without going down a level (what's not allowed)?

IIRC the XP cost is figured out before the epic x10 GP cost is factored in. i suspect the time to create is as well.

 

[Pax]

Hmmm...where do you get this number? According to my research, heavy fortification is a +5 value to armor, which equates to a +25,000 GP valuation. As the heavy fort. will be the "base" power of the torque, the 25K should be considered to be the "base" price of the item. I am not aware of this "doubling for being non-armor" rule you reference.

Methinks you forget, for the HEavy Fortification to apply, the armor must be at LEAST +1 to start with.

You are WAY off base here. Ring of Counterspells is 4,000 GP. If one were to triple the uses, so-to-speak, that would end up being:

As I stated further down, I was pulling numbers form memory as my books were not with me.

Like I said, either validate your assertions (your contentions regarding the RoCS have already been proven fallatious), or reassess your "research".

Either keep a civil tongue in your head, or be ignored, lackwit.

You are all sorts of wrong here. Check the DMG for Intelligent item powers. The base price for such an item as I describe in the ring is 90,000 GP. That price subsumes ALL of the powers delineated. Where you get your wild assertions I have no idea, but they were entertaining to read.

I don't care what the DMG lists ... those prices are for wholly random abilities. Dice rolling, not NAMED. You name a specific power, you pay for that ability and suck it up (note, I didn't charge for the ring to have an intelligence at all, whereas I -could- have said "intelligence squared times 2000gp" based on the cost to ENHANCE an attribute. And in your case, with your attitude, I would!.

Quite an insightful close to your misinformed post.

Quite an insightful close to your needlessly insulting post.

BTW, I am that "munchkin" player that the original poster refers to. How about everybody do me a favor and at least try and figure out the definitions to words before they attempt to employ such in their posts.

I figured as much, actually -- yoru needless hostility being the first clue. Tell you what, "friend" -- were you in my campaign, your decision to cop an attitude over the pricing would have driven the Torc and the Ring alike, form "millions of GP, high Epic items" ... straight into "screw that, not in MY campaign."

A munchkin is somebody that breaks the rules, usually with wanton abandon.

There are as many definitions of munchkin as there are munchkins. IMO, "munchkin" refers to anyoen who ABUSES the rules, wether they are broken or not, for personal advantage.

Which your silly trick with an intelligent ring clearly is -- please, try and TELL me you weren't planning on having the RING activate the various healing (etc) abilities imbued into it.

Me, I'm a min/maxer

No. A Min/max player doesn't needfully abuse the rules. You're a munchkin; deal with that fact.

 

[Pax]

As to kreynolds ridiculous price for the initial item - sorry, the x10 is... nonsensical.

Especially since the caster could simply start with a base item, and add powers as he goes. At what point does one power suddenly cost x10? If you're really going to do that, why don't I just go and make half-a-dozen slotless items?

Actually, that was me, not kreynolds.

And the x10 is clearly defined in the ELH section on magic. If the item qualifies as an Epic item, then it's market price is 10x normal. One of the suggested tripwires for that, is when its market price is over 200,000 (at DM's discretion).

So once your item costs 200,001gp or more, the DM can <i>at any time when new abilities are beign added</i>, declare it an Epic magic item, and figure the end price (after the adding of that power) at the full, 10x for everything level. Which means, yes, your price suddenly jumps by a LOT.

Oh well; that's what you deal with, if you keep piling more and more magic into a single item. *shrug*

Consider, for example, a Longsword. A +5 Longsword costs (5x5x2000, plus MW sword) 50,315gp. Take the same sword, and improve it to a +6 Longsword. By the DMG pricing (assuming a +6 sword was even possible), it shoudl cost (6x6x2000, plus MW sword) 72,315. Now, go look up a +6 sword in the ELH. What would it cost? (6x6x2000x10, plus MW sword) 720,315. ELH page 130, Table 4-9 lists exactly that -- a jump from +50,000gp (for a +5 weapon), to +720,000gp (for a +6 weapon).

Once something is an Epic item, it costs 10x as much as the regular DMG or T&B tables would have estimated -- speaking strictly "by the book".

 

[Pax]

Re: ...a little off topic

To make an item worth 5 000 000, wouldn't that take 5 000 000/1000 days = 5000 days = 14 years? I've probably missed something here, but if it's right; I don't think epic level characters would spend 10+ years to make an item...

Hence the Epic Feat "Efficient Item Creation" == 10,000gp per day.

One could also take (from the FRCS) "Magic Artisan" feats to cut the cost-to-make by 25% (which also shortens the time required).

Combined, a 5Mgp item costs time like a 3.75Mgp item, which in turn takes ... 375 days. Just over one year.

 

[Pax]

IIRC the XP cost is figured out before the epic x10 GP cost is factored in. i suspect the time to create is as well.

No, Epic Items cost XP equal to their final market price divided by 100 ... plus 10,000.

Time to create is the same.

Mind you, the trick is, if it's costing you 60,000xp ... you're probably significantly over 50th level. Not to mention, one Magical Artisan feat and *poof* it's 45,000xp.

Also remember (I forget exactly where), if you want to cast a spell that requires XP, or make a magic item, you can choose not to level up, instead saving the XP against the cost of the spell/item. So, for 60,000XP items, a 30th level caster could simply choose NOT to level up to 31st level, gain the other 30Kxp they need, and then build the item.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Actually, that was me, not kreynolds.

My apologies to kreynolds then

So once your item costs 200,001gp or more, the DM can at any time when new abilities are beign added, declare it an Epic magic item, and figure the end price (after the adding of that power) at the full, 10x for everything level. Which means, yes, your price suddenly jumps by a LOT.

With very little in the way of justification. As I said, instead of making a ring worth 200,000, I'd make 9 slotless items (gems) worth 20,000 each, and then a ring for 20,000, which just so happens to have mounts for the 9 gems. And if you're going to go nuts over that, then I embed them in my own flesh or eat them or any one of a million other things which have basically the same result as making that ring in the first place. Long story short, having a 200,000 threshold for items which can be broken up into smaller components is just ridiculous. Having a 200,000 threshold for a single enchantment would make far more sense.

Oh well; that's what you deal with, if you keep piling more and more magic into a single item. *shrug*

Except for the fact that doing so makes everyones bookkeeping that much easier than having to have ten times as many items on your inventory list...

Consider, for example, a Longsword. A +5 Longsword costs (5x5x2000, plus MW sword) 50,315gp. Take the same sword, and improve it to a +6 Longsword. By the DMG pricing (assuming a +6 sword was even possible), it shoudl cost (6x6x2000, plus MW sword) 72,315. Now, go look up a +6 sword in the ELH. What would it cost? (6x6x2000x10, plus MW sword) 720,315. ELH page 130, Table 4-9 lists exactly that -- a jump from +50,000gp (for a +5 weapon), to +720,000gp (for a +6 weapon).

That's a little bit different. In this case, it's the ability for a sword to have a +6 bonus which is causing the x10 multiplyer, not merely it's price. It's perfectly possible to have an item with an effective +10 in enchantments without triggering the x10 multiplyer, as long as it's enhancement bonus is only +5.

Once something is an Epic item, it costs 10x as much as the regular DMG or T&B tables would have estimated -- speaking strictly "by the book".

 

[Pax]

With very little in the way of justification.

Actually, with every bit as MUCH justification as declarign a +6 enhancement-bonus weapon Epic. It's in the same list, that first page of the ELH's section on Magic Items.

As I said, instead of making a ring worth 200,000, I'd make 9 slotless items (gems) worth 20,000 each, and then a ring for 20,000, which just so happens to have mounts for the 9 gems.

Making it one item. As a GM, I don't permit end-runs around the rules, which IMO is what that would be.

And if you're going to go nuts over that, then I embed them in my own flesh or eat them or any one of a million other things which have basically the same result as making that ring in the first place. Long story short, having a 200,000 threshold for items which can be broken up into smaller components is just ridiculous. Having a 200,000 threshold for a single enchantment would make far more sense.

And IYC, that works fine. IMC, I use the threshhold for the entire ITEM, and apply it only when the sum total seems to warrant it.

Except for the fact that doing so makes everyones bookkeeping that much easier than having to have ten times as many items on your inventory list...

Other means of simplifying book-keeping exist, with an equal risk of damaging game balance.

That's a little bit different. In this case, it's the ability for a sword to have a +6 bonus which is causing the x10 multiplyer, not merely it's price. It's perfectly possible to have an item with an effective +10 in enchantments without triggering the x10 multiplyer, as long as it's enhancement bonus is only +5.

And as long as no single special quality of the weapon exceeds the +5 threshold. And as long as the special qualities and innate enhancement don't add up to +11 or more.

The point being: if it's good for a sword, it's good for a ring, or a torc. It's the little bit that says "DM's discretion". Both items were, in terms of power, far superior to what (IMO) a non-epic, non-artifact item should be capable of.

 

[green slime]

Whew!

I just waded through some of the smoke in here, read through a large majority of the posts, and have this to say:

1a) On the creation of the items, I'd let a PC create them. But at a cost. Exactly what that cost would be? Can't say. Quite Expensive. Probably WOULDN'T allow a ring to cast spells all by itself, or at least would put a serious limit on it, or it would become Epic.

1b)Regarding the Fortification aspect, Serious consideration needs to be made, this is taken into account when looking at the price of the final product, thus, if I find the final price to be low, I know there is some leeway: (the price for the ability would be SOMEWHERE in the realm of 32,000 gp to 72,000 gp) Thus the magnitude is right, we are just arguing about small change...

1c) Because seriously, it doesn't take a maths major to see that these items would be the most expensive items available in the DMG, if they were included there. Thus, they are at the very least bordering on the Epic, and the player should EXPECT to have to pay an EPIC price.

2) The Epic rules don't multiply the magic item creation XP cost by 10. Just the GP cost.

3) I allow Spring Attack + Charge... for the purposes of avoiding AoO versus creatures with reach... (Also consider the Ride-by-Attack mounted feat) Spring attack is a feat with many requirements. The benefits should be commiserate.

4) Many Shot + Shot on the Run ... Yes that too.