A quick question on Undead rage (or lack thereof)

[Darkness]

The 3.0 FAQ has this:

If a barbarian became undead (by gaining the vampire
template, for example), how would you determine how long
his rage lasts? He no longer has a Constitution score. Could
an undead barbarian theoretically rage until all opponents
were defeated or someone takes him down? Or does his
rage simply last 3 rounds (base 3 + 0 for no Constitution
score)? Or do you assume that the undead barbarian has a
Constitution score of 4 (0 + 4 bonus from rage) and so
cannot rage at all, since the modifier for an ability score of
4 is –3? Does this Constitution “boost” have any other
effects on the undead barbarian? Does he actually lose hit
points?
An undead creature uses its Charisma modifier wherever its
Constitution modifier would normally apply (except Fortitude
saving throws, for which the creature must use its +0
Constitut ion modifier if it needs to make a Fortitude save at
all). Thus, the example barbarian rages for a number of rounds
equal to 3 + his Charisma modifier (but always for at least 1
round).
An undead creature has no Constitution score at all and
cannot gain one by receiving a bonus. Therefore, the +4
Constitution bonus from rage has no effect on this barbarian.

Undead type description mentions only Concentration checks in 3.0, just like in 3.5.

 

[Deset Gled]

Though I'm sure that somewhere I've read it stated explicitly, and I thought as part of the Core Rules, not Libris Mortis or the like.

No. As stated in the SRD, undead substitute Cha for Con only for concentration checks. There are specific examples where undead creatures use Cha for things like their abilities that cause saves, but this type of ability is always specific to the creature in question. It is not proof that undead use Cha for everything.

I think a quick proof of the fact that undead don't use Cha for "any ability normally based on CON" is in the numbers; check out the HP and Fort saves in every undead in the MM. They are all calculated using +0 as the modifier, not their Cha modifier.

EDIT: Just read Darkness's FAQ quote. I personally believe this is another instance of the FAQ being just plain wrong. I can find no place where the rules support the idea that "An undead creature uses its Charisma modifier wherever its Constitution modifier would normally apply", and the fact that the FAQ has to explain away the Fort save part without any rules backup as well (and fails to mention how HP is calculated) strengthens my arguement that it's incorrect. YMMV.

 

[Sir Brennen]

No. As stated in the SRD, undead substitute Cha for Con only for concentration checks. There are specific examples where undead creatures use Cha for things like their abilities that cause saves, but this type of ability is always specific to the creature in question. It is not proof that undead use Cha for everything.

I think a quick proof of the fact that undead don't use Cha for "any ability normally based on CON" is in the numbers; check out the HP and Fort saves in every undead in the MM. They are all calculated using +0 as the modifier, not their Cha modifier.

Errrmmm... I didn't say everything

Hit Points and Saves aren't abilities based on CON, they're a function of it - the non-CON of undead obviously affect these. I know this. I was referring to special abilites, which, for most living creatures, are based on CON, not CHA.

And the SDR does not state CHA is substituted for CON only for Concentration checks.

Edit: and Undead don't receive a +0 mod to HP and the like. They get no modifier. Not quite the same thing. A +0 mod would imply a 10 or 11 CON.

 

[iwatt]

Just for coolness though, I'd allow an raging blackguard vampire to get a +4 to Cha instead of to Con.....

 

[Sir Brennen]

Okay. Found the official text in the core rules. In two places, From the MM, pages 293 and 300, under the section labeled Charisma:

Also use Charisma for any DC that normally would be based on an ability score the creature does not have. For example, undead have no Constitution score, so any poison attack an undead creature has would use Charisma to determine the save DC

The FAQ then extends this logic to include other class/creature features when addressing the Rage ability of an undead barbarian.

Sorry Deset... these kinda things just bug me til I find 'em.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Okay. Found the official text in the core rules.

The official text in the Core Rules for determining Save DCs.

Not for determining Rage duration

-Hyp.

 

[Sir Brennen]

Not for determining Rage duration

Which is why I said the FAQ example (on Rage) Darkenss quoted extends the logic... you know, uses it as a precedent.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Which is why I said the FAQ example (on Rage) Darkenss quoted extends the logic... you know, uses it as a precedent.

Yes, but that's a bit like if the FAQ said that undead were immune to all spells with descriptors. In the core rules, they're immune to any spell with the mind-affecting descriptor, so we're just 'extending the logic', using mind-affecting as a precedent.

It's still essentially 'FAQ making stuff up'.

-Hyp.

 

[Three_Haligonians]

Some more questions that arose as I thought about it

Nice sig --- gotta love Stan Rogers.

Thank-you, it always nice to see another fan of unofficial anthem of the maritimes.

Even if it lasts only 3 rounds, at least they don't have to worry about fatigue.

Very true, which is good since it looks like an undead barbarian's rage isn't going to last out any combat.

So it looks like undead with the rage ability are going to lose out a little bit, especially incoporeal ones (like the ghost of a barbarian) since they don't have a Str score either. That being said, would you agree that for the purposes of increasing an undead creature's CR, the barbarian class would be considered a nonassociated class? (as explained on p. 294 of the 2.5 MM).

J from Three Haligonians

 

[the Jester]

There's at least one undead barbarian in, er, might be Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. Rage lasts three rounds for him.