A Rifts Balance Discussion for Roguewriter & Buzzard

[Green Knight]

Did you read the article at RPGnet? I thought it was funny how they thought DR was superior to MDC. Like you could ever destroy an M1A1 Abrams MBT with a Glock 9mm pistol.

I'll read it later. But going on your last sentence, there, Rifts isn't exactly all that realistic with damage, either. For instance, look at the Devastator from Triax & the NGR. For a robot that's about 70 feet tall, shouldn't its big guns do just a WEE bit more damage (The big guns do 1d6x10 and 2d4x10, respectively)? Especially when you consider that the NGR's primary enemies are the Gargoyles, each of whom have anywhere from 100 to 400 MDC (Anywhere from 4-6 shots on average from the biggest gun to kill your average Gargoyle. Just ONE).

The whole damage to armor ratio is out of whack. IMO, they should drastically cut down on how much MDC everything has, and/or increase the damage on a lot of weapons. It makes no sense that a gun that's big enough for 30+ humans to ride on it would require 2-3 shots to kill your average Coalition Grunt. Nevermind that nickle and dimeing the enemy to death is just downright annoying. And considering how long a combat can last in Rifts...

Both systems have strengths and weaknesses. Of course the Palladium system is ANCIENT and is due for a massive overhaul.

And HOW!

 

[Particle_Man]

Just for fun, I once designed a cyberknight for Rifts that was better than the Wilderness Scout in every way. No exceptions anywhere. Rifts is horribly, horribly unbalanced, and doesn't have a smidgen of guidance as to how to balance it.

That said, I have played in a Rifts game (with said cyberknight), but to even pretend that it is balanced is just silly.

D&D 3E is a lot closer to balanced, and gives guidance on how to keep things in balance. This makes it a better game, other things being equal, than other games that do not do this. Rifts does not do this. What Rifts has going for it is a cool setting. But a good DM could make up a cool setting, or buy a packaged cool setting designed for D&D or another d20 setting (or d20 modern). So given the wide array of choices, I would choose a d20 game over Rifts hands down every time.

Now if someone could do Rifts d20 without getting sued, that would be cool.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

The whole damage to armor ratio is out of whack. IMO, they should drastically cut down on how much MDC everything has, and/or increase the damage on a lot of weapons. It makes no sense that a gun that's big enough for 30+ humans to ride on it would require 2-3 shots to kill your average Coalition Grunt. Nevermind that nickle and dimeing the enemy to death is just downright annoying. And considering how long a combat can last in Rifts...

Totally agree. I thought they nailed the armor thing down with Robotech. They should have made 400MDC the ceiling for anything in Rifts as that was what the MAC II had in Robotech. I believe each of it's four 40cm Cannon did 3d6x10 MD. They should have kept that in mind when designing personal armor in Rifts. NOBODY outside of power armor or protected by a spell should be able to survive a direct hit from a 40cm shell.

 

[Green Knight]

Now if someone could do Rifts d20 without getting sued, that would be cool.

I've been thinking about trying to convert it either to Hero System (If you want to keep the complexity of Rifts) or Mutants & Masterminds (If you want to simplify it). A points system would probably be good for Rifts over just straight up D20.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

That's the essence of balance, right there. All things being equal, it should be a fair fight. One SHOULDN'T have to rely on the other guy being completely unarmed to win in a fight.

Explain the Rogue class then. :\

A Rogue can't go up against any of the other classes in a fair fight. Even Bards who are their closest cousins have spells that would help them win the day.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

I've been thinking about trying to convert it either to Hero System (If you want to keep the complexity of Rifts) or Mutants & Masterminds (If you want to simplify it). A points system would probably be good for Rifts over just straight up D20.

I've been considering converting it to Fuzion (cyberpunk). I've got a copy of Maximum Metal which has very in depth rules for PA and high powered weapons. It'd be a lot of work though since the systems are in no way similar.

 

[Green Knight]

Explain the Rogue class then. :\

A Rogue can't go up against any of the other classes in a fair fight. Even Bards who are their closest cousins have spells that would help them win the day.

Ok, going "toe-to-toe" isn't the best example. But point is, the Rogue and the Fighter are balanced, as there's more to playing in an RPG then fighting. However, the Cyber-Knight doesn't give you all that many reasons why it's a preferable over the Glitter Boy, the way Rogue does over a Fighter. It has SOME advantages, like the Psi-Sword, but other then that and a handful of other psionic abilities (Which a Glitter Boy can ALSO replicate, if he makes his rolls for psionics), the two look very similar. Whatever advantages the Cyber-Knight has over a GB Pilot, though, are ALL greatly outweighed by the Glitter Boy armor.

When deciding between a Rogue and a Fighter, it comes down to what style of play the player prefers, since in games terms they're pretty much equal. But the power is clearly in favor of the Glitter Boy, who's better then the Cyber-Knight in nearly every way.

 

[Particle_Man]

Explain the Rogue class then. :\

A Rogue can't go up against any of the other classes in a fair fight. Even Bards who are their closest cousins have spells that would help them win the day.

But a rogue can make an equal (or greater) contribution to a fighter when both are fighting a third opponent (that sneak attack damage really adds up, especially for a rogue using two weapons).

Sorry, I just thought that your comment was funny, since in one of the campaigns I am in, the rogue is seen a bit too powerful, compared to the others. I guess tastes differ somewhat.

 

[Calico_Jack73]

But a rogue can make an equal (or greater) contribution to a fighter when both are fighting a third opponent (that sneak attack damage really adds up, especially for a rogue using two weapons).

Sorry, I just thought that your comment was funny, since in one of the campaigns I am in, the rogue is seen a bit too powerful, compared to the others. I guess tastes differ somewhat.

First of all, I believe that you can only Sneak Attack once per round even if you are using paired weapons only your first attack gets the damage bonus.

Second, we were discussing a up front non-sneaky fight. Rogues are the weakest class in the game for that IMHO.

 

[reiella]

Totally agree. I thought they nailed the armor thing down with Robotech. They should have made 400MDC the ceiling for anything in Rifts as that was what the MAC II had in Robotech. I believe each of it's four 40cm Cannon did 3d6x10 MD. They should have kept that in mind when designing personal armor in Rifts. NOBODY outside of power armor or protected by a spell should be able to survive a direct hit from a 40cm shell.

Bah! Giga Damace and GDC is the way to go

[Ah yes, My prescious Rifter #9 1/2 ]

[ Add ]
Erm, flanking isn't a sneaky fight, it's tactical application of a regular situation in melee combat. Rogues don't have to be scurvy backstabbing dogs to be effective . That said it isn't a 'Mano e Mano" fight...